Tangle Diagrams
So i finished these diagrams at last, only started them about a year ago, then completely forgot, woops,
anyhoo i've already written this post once and somehow managed to not post it. That was about a week ago now.
Well, how do you like the look of these diagrams, granted they aren't quite right yet, there may be some duplication, but i think they could be useful.
I'm thinking that we could stick smaller versions in with the emoticons, then when you wanna discuss tangles you could make a short list of graphics to help explain your ideas (rev i'm looking at you, cos i never understand your ascii tangles)
Could also indicate what's going on in new tangle tutorials by putting the symbol in the corner or something, so when you watch in slow mo you have a clear idea of what's going on, make it more accesible.
Well here they are, any thoughts? Are they any use to anyone?
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Comments
Tangle Diagrams
I'm not really sure how the ascill didnt make sense.. L,R = hands l,r were the poi heads.. in most of the diagrams..
[code:1]
r
|
L--*--R
|
l
would be like your inverted..
and
L l
/
*
/
R r
would be adding and subtracting twist..
[/code:1]
it doesnt show the nexus whihc I admit is pretty importatn.. but by the same token.. you can't exactly get them to link a different nexus in that position.. but those new diagrams were definiately needed and are clearer.. though that entrance and exit one confuses me.. that's really a set up for a twist.. and though you can get to tangles from there.. tangles work better with a different setup..
Tangle Diagrams
ok, so i get the ascii text, but it was always baffling to me
but i figure those diagrams ain't to clear, and so i've just taken some photos
This is how you do this standard tangle (from the hight hand side to the left, spinning forwards)
CLICK HERE FOR THE LINK TO THE VIDEO
Enter the tangle on the right hand side, right poi slams down into left
Right poi leads up through your arms, beat 1
Left poi follows up through arms, beat 2
Right poi leads over the the left hand side for the exit
Is that clearer?
m[/url]
Tangle Diagrams
yes matt thats clear but incredibly misleading...
the way you do it is why people thought that tangles start on the outside.. but the thing is that when you do a tanlge.. the poi are only linked for 360 degrees.... with a tangle the right poi comes over the left and doesnt tangle until it reaches a straight down position.. give or take a little.. and then it undoes when the lead poi gets about 360 degrees later (ie the bottom again.. give or take a little.)
the reason I nitpick is because tangles link and unlink while the poi are spinning between the hands.. and even though you can fudge the timing to make them start wider and end later outside like you have above.. they dont operate that way naturally..
does that make sense? I mean dont get me wrong those are incredibly clear and people can get the idea.. but it means people will be starting tangles and twists the same way.. which will probably cause them to get blurred together as one again..
Tangle Diagrams
Yeah i see what you mean.
This is exactly how i go into tangles tho, which is why all the old hyperloop vids say "enter on the outside".
But you cleared it up for me a while back that they don't actually start on the outside.
But if you enter by doing 2 twists then it definitely looks like the first picture because the poi have to come round on the outside again for the second twist.
Rev, your new cam has a camera on it right? So send me some pics to demonstrate what you're talking about. For that same tangle i've done. Then i think i might understand what you mean, we can stick your pictures up here too and it could start turning into a really nice tangle tutorial.
m
Tangle Diagrams
those pictures look pretty clear to me, i hope some people find them helpful
Tangle Diagrams
matt- my cam requires a memstick to take pics.. and I dont have one..
let em try to describe one more time using words.. if I fail here. then I will try and make a REALLY SLOW video instead of a pic..
imagine your arm and left poi are like this..
arm<>--------o
now imagine your right poi is like this
o
|
|
|
^
v
a
r
m
now imagine an overlap of those two... lets put the overlap near the handles just to be clear..
[code:1]
o
|
|
arm<>*----o|
^
v
a
r
m
[/code:1]
the * symbolizes the the vertcal right poi being OVER the the horizontal left poi at that point.. its does -not- symbol any kind of tangle.. think of it like your enter/exit picture above where one poi is laying on top the other poi..
This is to symbolize the threshold of the poi as you go to enter a tangle.. if the vertical right poi move more to the left (with if you imagine forward spin) then it will create a tangle only -after- it has gone to the left of the riight hand..
Tangling on the inside is kinda misleading as a term.. can we say tangle in between the arms.. because now when I read tanlge on the inisde I think inside plane.. and that wasnt what I ever meant by tanlge on the inside.. and I dont want anyone else to mistakenly draw that inference here..
in this decription the left poi is also straight out.. whihc in actuality it would not be.. but this is sort of an exageration.. because as long as the left poi is to the right of the right hand.. it will act the same.. this is for simplicity in my diagram.. I guess you could say that if you turned your enter/exit pics to where the handles were left and down.. with the under poi right and the over poi up.. you'd get the same picture.. (but I guess people coudl always mistake that for wallplane twist.. :SIGH:
the only final note I can add to this is that you cant start an inversion on the outside.. and a tangle is just an inversion.. only on the strings.. so if it helps to do a inverted weave (buzzsaw weave, 3bt inversion, first degre inversion.. whatever you want to call it) then use that for a model.. because if you imagine an inversion.. then you can go to your pics and replace the poi with your arms.. you dont' cross your arms like a weave (your enter exit pics) and then pull it over into the buzzsaw.. but rather swing it straight over towards the buzzsaw directly..
does that help any?
Tangle Diagrams
Just to throw a spaniel into the works here's my take.
Entering a forwards tangle on my right, at the instant of contact the left poi is outside my right arm. The right poi is pointing straight out away from me and so can't really be considered inside or outside because as it continues it could go either way.
Also: At the same instant my hands are not really in the position shown in matt's entry photo. My left hand is further left. Looking at the vid I would say yours is too matt.
So I guess my entry diagram would be more like:
[code:1]
L r
|
*
|
R l[/code:1]
From this if you add a twist before going inverted (lead in with the left poi)I guess you could say you enter on the outside but if you go straight in I'd say you entered while transitioning to inverted.
If you want to be really pedantic about it.
Cool pics matt.
Tangle Diagrams
yes but if you look at the type of nexus that is formed.. it cant have twist..
a tanlge is justlike an inversion.. and inversions dont enter through the outside.. sure with a tangle you get a little more freedom in the placement of the crossover point whihc can give the illusion that it enters on the outside.. but when you look at what you are actually doing (the inversion) you cant say that it enters on the outside.. even if you make it so.. becase it means that you are intentionally making it 'appear' that way.. not that it happens tht way..
so I dont think the question is how can you 'make' it look.. but rather what it actually is doing.. no?
Tangle Diagrams
If that isn't entering outside what is?
Tangle Diagrams
if you change the angle.. or crossover point.. or both.. you get it to go out wide before it comes through the buzzsaw and still form the same nexus typ.. its like swinging the right poi wide right on a 3bt weave.. it still leads to the left.. and still tangles in the same manner.. whihc is a basic inversion.. you can't invert on the outside..
alI can say is do an inversion slightly more wlalplaned than sideplaned.. it appears to twist on the outside but its doesnt..
Tangle Diagrams
Er, no.
It's definately the left poi leading in/out and definately not the same nexus.
Hmm let's try a...[code:1]
L r
|
X
|
R l
Enter as before (Poi shown crossing / not tangled).
L l
|
*
|
R r
180 degrees later, half twist added, still outside, poi now tangled(/linked/whatever).
r
|
L--*--R
|
l
180 degrees later, Left poi inverted.
l
|
L--*--R
|
r
180 degrees later, right poi inverted.
r R
| /
*
/ |
l L
180 degrees later, left poi leading out, still with half twist.
l R
| /
X
/ |
r L
180 degrees later, untwisted, poi now just crossing over.
[/code:1]
If that doesn't make sense I'm off to find my hippo...
Tangle Diagrams
Also some people may call my half twist a twist or something... just use your imagination.
Tangle Diagrams
BUMP!
If you could sort out the links matt (assuming the content still exists) this could be a brilliant resource for new tanglers