Define ~ Planes
Define ~ Planes
I'd like to hear some definitions for this term, then we'll refine the definition and finally once poiple are agreed we'll add it to the Poidia.
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Define ~ Planes
A plane is an imaginary surface in which the poi spins. For instance if you stand there and spin your poi at your sides each poi is spinning in one of the two wheel planes - one to your left, one to your right. A butterfly spins in the front wall plane.
We need some diagrams for this one I think to cover the usual planes - left/right wheel planes, front/BTB wall planes, ceiling plane, buzzsaw plane, inside wheel planes (between arm and body), inverted plane (inside butterflys). Can't think of any more off the top of my head
Define ~ Planes
Hmm... hadn't thought of that before!! Might try that this afternoon. Wel done, Matt- this Encyclopoidia was a bloody great idea!
Define ~ Planes
Diagrams for this would definately be a good idea.
Don't recall hearing of buzzsaw plane, inside wheel plane, or inverted plane before. Or at least not enough for them to sink in.
I personally tend to think of there being three perpendicular planes each with infinite parallel planes. That's why I've never considered buzzsaws to have their own plane (esp. since you can turn them so that they change planes).
Define ~ Planes
X-Plane = Horizontal Plane = Ceiling Plane = Corkscrew Plane
Y-Plane = Wheel Plane = 'Basic Weave' Plane
Z-Plane = Wall Plane = 'Basic Butterfly' Plane
Now you my disagree with the order of x, y, and z plane. This definitely needs to be discussed but here's what i think.
Look at yourself in a mirror.
Imagine a Horizontal X-axis and a Vertical Y-axis.
Imagine those axes to be the edges of planes which go back into the mirror.
Those are your X-Plane and Y-Plane respectively.
The Z-Plane is the mirror itself.
Anyone wanna change this, speak now.
x, y, z are coloured red, green, blue cos it's easy to remember. When describing complex plane movement we could change the text colourto aid understanding.
¦m¦
Define ~ Planes
Sounds good but something is confusing me..and most likely its because the sun isnt even up so my brain is being stupid but ya never know. I think I understood what the z plane (sorry, had to )would be, but in an impossible weave I believe the base pattern is a ttn, coming from a butterfly so being a z plane, would it change because of the location of spinning, or do planes come from the base pattern? Pardon me if I'm confusing others as well as myself.... stupid fogged up brain that pretends to be smart when it isnt even turned on yet.
M-P Kid
Define ~ Planes
An impossible weave is a combination of 3-beat TTN and 3-beat weave, and is done in your two wheel planes just like the weave.
Define ~ Planes
Poikid: Base Patterns can be done in ANY plane.
For example: lets take a simple Base 2 Pattern. A Base pattern describes the path of 1 poi, in this case it will do a total of 2 full circles (that's what Base 2 means)
For this example start with 1 poi in your right hand.
Spin it forwards in the Y-Plane (like 1 beat of a forwards 3 beat weave)Pick a point and spin towards it ~ for now let's call this the POINT
It should be spinning on the right hand side of your body, in other words THE SAME side as the hand that is spinning it.
This pattern is Base 1. To make it Base 2 we need to add another circle to it, so go right ahead a spin 1 circle on the right followed by 1 circle on the left.
This is now Base 2. Notice that the Base number only refers to 1 poi.
Now pick up the other poi and do the Same Base pattern i.e. 1 spin on the SAME SIDE followed by 1 spin on the OPPOSITE SIDE
You'll find that that other poi can go in the same direction or the opposite direction to the first poi, it can be In-Time or Split-Time.
In other words with a Base Pattern and a Plane you can still do lots of different Patterns.
So to Define any given Pattern we need to Define the Base Pattern AND the relationship between the 2 poi i.e. same or opposite direction, In Time or Split Time.
But even with that information we can still do that Pattern in different Planes.
Lets go back to the example of the same Base 2 Pattern in the Y-Plane, but lets say that the second poi is travelling in the SAME direction SPLIT time.
In other words you are doing a 2 Beat Weave in the Y-Plane ~ a pretty basic move.
Now what happens if you turn your feet 90 degrees (1/4 turn) to one side?
Your poi will still be spinning towards the same POINT but RELATIVE TO YOU ~ they will no longer be spinning in the Y-Plane ~ they will now be in the Z-Plane (like a regular old butterfly, except both poi will still be travelling in the same direction, and still split time)
They will also still be doing the same Base Pattern, i.e going from one side of your body to the other ~ now there are many possibilities for what this 'Move' could be one of which is a WINDMILL. Can you think of any others?
Now lets move this Base Pattern into the X-Plane. Now what is this 'Move' called? That's right it's a CORKSCREW
So the Impossible Weave is a Base 3 Pattern, the Poi travel in Opposite directions and at Split Time.
So this is a Base 3 Butterfly,
or a 3 Beat Butterfly (Beats and Base are related but slightly different)
or a 3 Beat TTN
or a Split Time TTN
For short lets call the Base Pattern 3B (3 = 'Base 3' and B=Butterfly)
Now a regular 3B is done in the Wall Plane, or as I prefer the Z-Plane.
After you learn it you can learn to turn around 180.
Once you can do that in both directions you can (instead) turn your feet 90 degrees (so that you are spinning in the Y-Plane) Now you don't need to move your feet to do the sme turn.
THIS IS THE IMPOSSIBLE WEAVE. It's when you do the 3B in the Y-Plane and 'turn' without moving your feet.
Okay, so I have no idea if that made sense... But it'll do for now
¦m¦
Define ~ Planes
[quote="matt"]X-Plane = Horizontal Plane = Ceiling Plane = Corkscrew Plane
Y-Plane = Wheel Plane = 'Basic Weave' Plane
Z-Plane = Wall Plane = 'Basic Butterfly' Plane
Define ~ Planes
Well matt, what you are saying makes sense....but now, 4 hours later, I dont even know what 'I' was talking about :19
Spiralx...........I'm lost. Nice lil diagram or whatever peoples call those thing....but I'm completely lost :19
Define ~ Planes
Just basically that the z-plane is the checked one in this diagram:
Which is therefore equivalent to the ceiling/floor planes. That's the standard mathematical representation
Define ~ Planes
If you're going to get into the math you may as well call them the xy-plane, the xz-plane, and the yz-plane. (Each plane is named after the two axes it fully contains) That's how I learned 'em in multivar, anyways.
So the xy-plane would be the ceiling/floor plane, the yz-plane would be the wall plane, and the xz-plane would be the wheel/side plane. I don't quite see it catching on, though.
But even if we rename the planes, we'll have to point out when we define them that they're known as the side, wall, ceiling, etc. planes.
Define ~ Planes
Spiralx: I think I figured out why we think about x-y plane differently. I reckon you think about it as if it were drawn on a piece of paper on a flat table so x y are horizontal, I think about looking at x y on a monitor so it's vertical :4
The reason I want to specify the planes with single letters is so that you can get any base pattern like 2W (2 beat Weave) and specify different moves like this
2Wx = corkscrew
2Wy = 2 beat weave
2Wz = windmill
But maybe we could just do this:
2W = corkscrew
2W = 2 beat weave
2W = windmill
I also wanna make some little emoticons which describe base patterns, someone had the idea on hop in the Plural Zee Alpha thread and it's a stroke of pure genius.
¦m¦
Define ~ Planes
Hmm yah emoticons would prolly be good.
M-P Kid
Define ~ Planes
[quote="matt"]Spiralx: I think I figured out why we think about x-y plane differently. I reckon you think about it as if it were drawn on a piece of paper on a flat table so x y are horizontal, I think about looking at x y on a monitor so it's vertical :4
Define ~ Planes
Spiralx wrote:
Lol now -that- is confusing. It starts to make sense the more I see it but whatever, y'all settle this hehe.
M-P Kid
Define ~ Planes
Well I didn't understand walls and planes before, but now I understand a little bit better now. Thanks for the info from everyone.
Define ~ Planes
I always looked at it the same way asmatt.. sometimes I changed which axis was where, but that's because I always used whatever model thje person I was talking to was comfortable with.. after all nomatter how you turn it, its still the same in premise... so whichever way we decide to lay it is fine by me.. makes one of my posts before goofy so I'll go change it..
Define ~ Planes
I tend to just stick to what I think of as the common terms for planes. Side, wall, & ceiling. I figure they'll be around forever or at least for a long time. And as evidenced by this thread there's a potential for miscommunication using X, Y, and Z.
It doesn't matter so much what you call them as long as it's understood what you're talking about, which is why color-coding is a good idea. I'm not sure how well it'll catch on overall, but it'd definately be useful in the Poidia (we'd have to remember to explain what color means what).
I'm intrigued by the idea of a system of notation for poi. It seems likely to get overly complicated, though. Depending on how much information you want to be able to express with it.
Define ~ Planes
I've never gotten the side,wall, and ceiling terms. To me my wall is at my side......someone set me straight on this lol which ones is which?
Define ~ Planes
If you were a vehicle imagine where your wheels would be... on each side of you. Those are your two wheel planes.
And then imagine you're facing a wall
And there's a ceiling above you and a floor beneath you 
Define ~ Planes
Ummmm............sorry all, great input, but I'm going with Matt on this one.... the others are all confusing
M-P Kid
Define ~ Planes
yeah but see the x,y, and z planes work where ceiling, side, and wall planes fall down...
the reason being that your front wall plane becomes a side plane when you turn 90 degrees... however, no matter which way you turn the x,y, and z planes stay the same...
Define ~ Planes
[quote="Rev"]the reason being that your front wall plane becomes a side plane when you turn 90 degrees... however, no matter which way you turn the x,y, and z planes stay the same...
Define ~ Planes
there are some moves (especially some corsser stuff) that doesn't move in 180 degree incriments.. and to describe those moves.. involves a stationary planer notation....
Define ~ Planes
What do mean by "doesn't move in 180 degree incriments"?
*confused*
Define ~ Planes
ok.. by turning my body but not my poi I am moving the the axis.. think of the side plane becoming a wallplane without moving poi... and think of moving poi and not moving the torso.. and I think that yields planer confusion...
I think we need a way to stationarily fix the axis so it never changes.. throughout a move, combo, etc.. or work a way to get a double axis (i.e. one axis as per the torso and one fixed.. or something..
Define ~ Planes
[quote="Rev"]ok.. by turning my body but not my poi I am moving the the axis.. think of the side plane becoming a wallplane without moving poi... and think of moving poi and not moving the torso.. and I think that yields planer confusion...
Define ~ Planes
I'm jsut saying there are times when it need be fixed and there are times when its relative...
I dunno.. my heads so fried from midterms and what not.. I think it really depends on what you are trying to describe..
Define ~ Planes
Probably. I think moves are perhaps best described in terms of relative wheel/wall planes and transitions would be better described in terms of fixed X/Y/Z planes.
Define ~ Planes
:7
Define ~ Planes
So does this mean we want to use ceiling/wall/side for relative planes and X/Y/Z for fixed planes?
Works for me, I'd just need to know what we're going with as the official definition for the X, Y, and Z planes. And we'd have to make sure that the relative vs. fixed thing is clearly explain for new poiple.
Define ~ Planes
I like the idea, it sounds like it could be confusing to people who just start out. But that's why were making the Poidia.
Define ~ Planes
I don't mean to adfd more confusion.. but we forgot something...
outside of the x/y/z axis.. there are divisions of planes within that... think of it like a grid.. you have a plane at cx=1 aat x=2 at x=3 and so forth... which is where we derive the inner and outer planes..
i.e. we have an outer wall plane (over the arms when the arms point down in the wall plane..) and an inner plane (under the arms when the arms poin down in the wall plane) and an inverted plane (being between the arms) the inverted being themost confusing.. inverted perpendicular plane being the buzzsaw plane, and an inverted parallel plane would be that are between the arms in the wall plane..
Define ~ Planes
Well I didn't, which is why I named them all originally
Define ~ Planes
sorry.. its been so far from there I hadn't noticed.. i jsut remember it comig up in our discussion yesterday and though I woud add it because I didn't remmebr it coming up..
Define ~ Planes
So, let's figure out where we are here.
Stuff that's come up so far:
- Each plane exists in multiple locations
- Fixed and relative positions
- "Common" names for relative and x/y/z for fixed?
- Color coding and notation
- Different definitions of x/y/z planes
- Inverted planes, inside planes, etc. (Same as multiple locations)
First off I think we should use one set of names for relative positions and one set for fixed positions. If we establish two separate sets of names and stick to them it should minimize confusion. Personally I favor having wall/ceiling/side for relative and x/y/z for fixed, but the rest of you may disagree.
Now as for noting different locations, I don't have a complete system worked out. So far I have this:
- Attatching the word 'inverted' to a plane means that it's between the arms. So your typical buzzsaw in the wheel/side plane would be in the inverted side plane, a horizontal buzzsaw would be in the inverted ceiling plane, etc.
I don't have much to contribute to color coding and notation right now (it's late and I should get more sleep), but I like the ideas.
As for x/y/z planes are we using Matt's definition?
Define ~ Planes
Aight I'm lost on one thing. What is the dif between fixed and relative planes? Did I seriously miss something?
-Poikid-
Define ~ Planes
Relative planes stay the same no matter how you turn i.e. wheel planes are always the planes to your sides.
Fixed planes stay the same no matter where you turn i.e. if your Z plane is the one where you spin a butterfly to start with then when you turn 90 degrees it's still in exactly the same place... which would now be your wheel plane (because that's relative).
Define ~ Planes
Oh ok right on thanks...but um... why must there be both?
Define ~ Planes
I figure we need diagrams with stick figures and circles for this.
Define ~ Planes
Achluo - Yeah, we're gonna want to use diagrams. A picture is worth a thousand words.
Poikid - I figure we should use both for two reasons. One: because both ways get used. Two: sometimes one way is more useful than the other.
Define ~ Planes
I really like the idea of x,y,z being fixed... and side, wall ceiling, etc.. being relative.. solves both problems with the least hassle, because then you have both a fixed referant and a relative referant at all times without two differnt notations like x1,y1,y2 or a,b,c or something.. so I think that much we ahve down.. I'll have to go back over and see what we have on the rest.. personally I think the above easier to hammer out then the inside, outside, inverted stuff.. mainly because I think it harder without diagrrams to show where the different places are...
I think a brilliant idea would be for someone with a cam (MATT :53 ) to take still picks of him with poi in the different planes.. or even just do a set of stills without poi in various hand positions.. these stills can then be added to via paint and other programs to poin out where inverted it and inner, and outer... etc..
Define ~ Planes
fixed plane terms in addition to the relative ones are a cool idea.
Wheel and Wall plane really go out the window when you're jumping about twisting like an enraged squirrel on PCP.
hey! why the renaming of wheel plane to side plane? i love the wheel analogy. Try doing isolated side circles inside the arm, and imagine a wheelchair. You'll never forget the terminology then
i agree with spiralx about the fixed planes. i learnt my xyz on a pc (3d studio), and it learnt me that the z plane is horizontal.
Final geeknote: Raven, i kinda agree that they'd be more accurately described as xy, xz, yz. But the easier version is just to use the axis that intersects the plane at right angles, rather than the axiseseses that define it
Define ~ Planes
I've always used side as the side plane..menaing side high side mid and side low.... wheel being side low.. and then there chest high and then theres head high... and what not.. did I miss something simian? wht I mean is.. I've always refere'd to the generic side plane and if need be specific the side wheel plane.. and if needing to be technical the right upper wheel plane.. why does the wheel need to be refered to as side plane.. I use front wheel planes as well..
Define ~ Planes
Front wheel plane? The wheel plane is everything to the side of you... it's always been a generic term.
Define ~ Planes
yup to spiralx
wheel plane = y plane
if your feet are standing on the x axis
Define ~ Planes
but what I'm saying is that I've always used it in context to just the lower areas... wheel being the lower plane in general because any move done there looks like a wheel rolling on the ground... not because of the wheel like a wheel chair..
Define ~ Planes
but spinning the poi low isn't a whole new plane
its a position ON a plane
Define ~ Planes
...or perhaps a position on the axis perpendicular to the plane
¦m¦
Define ~ Planes
[quote="Rev"]but what I'm saying is that I've always used it in context to just the lower areas... wheel being the lower plane in general because any move done there looks like a wheel rolling on the ground... not because of the wheel like a wheel chair..
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