Defined ~ Behind the Head ~ BTH

I'd say the important distinction to make here that with behind the head moves your arms go behind you over your shoulders whereas with behind the back moves your arms go behind you by your sides.

I agree.. shoulder or higher and obviously behind the head...

Hmm, no I guess that would the "over the head".

I see. Sounds good

True all true all... well I'd say go with Raven's...that was pretty good imo

Not all BTB moves require you spin on the opposite side of your body... BTB butterfly? Just an illustration

If your spinning behind your head, it must make sense to call it behind the head.

bth is exactly as btb only over the shoulders.. because you can't get anything high from btb.. just like you can't get anythign low behind the head.. its a matter of dividing the back wall, side, and buzzsaw planes up between two levels that we can reach since our shoulder sockets prevent us from spinning the way math says we can...

the only thing that determines bth is the same as btb.. are you past your body and in the rear plane.. and if in the wall plane do you have at least one hand bth.. for exampleinstead of having one hand btb waist wrapped to have a btb front wall plane you only need one arm neck wrapped.. and so forth..

its not that complicated.. but we have a knack here for making things more complicated then they are..

Behind the Head - When you are spinning the poi with one or both hands behind your body and above your shoulders.

That seems like the simplest definition and it covers everything I can think of. Works fine unless you want to get more specific about it.

*shrug*

I don't really see the problem, but I don't think the change matters that much. I'll go with whichever one most people go with.

Heh ok raven

ok monkey.. what the hell are you talking about.. there is no bth wheel plane.. so I'm confused on why that matters? even btb wheel plane makes sense when you think of btb as having one or both hands btb..

was playing with BTH wheel plane weaves yesterday with a few people at a workshop. Dom said it was an "ugly move" and wouldn't even try it

anyway:

Rev: there's no BTH wheel plane??? 8O
um, there is... just like ordinary BTB wheel plane.

the problem i have is that wheel plane BTB or BTH moves that reach right around your back, to the other side of your body. Your hands are only behind your back during the transition from one side to the other.

The defining characteristic isn't the hand or poi being behind the head, its the fact that your arm is reaching behind the head. (like BTB weave)

whereas wallplane ones are characterised by the hands remaining behind the back or head (like BTB butterfly etc.), and it's a totally different kind of shoulderarm position.

they're both really different (wall and wheel) and neither of them share that many characteristics. They're seperate moves lumped under one bit of terminology. The issue i have is that i think we're now trying to define really really loosely to fit both meanings in. But that'll be counterproductive in trying to understand the concepts involved.

sorry to talk so much about BTB rather than BTH, but they're extremely similar
(although you can take BTH moves over your body to your front, but you can't take BTB moves over or under your body because of (respectively) the way your shoulders work and the fact your legs are in the way)

Raven, i don't mean to diss your definition, especially seeing as i haven't tried to define it myself. But it seems far more effort is being put into defining what a pattern is as opposed to a base pattern etc. than actually pinning down these (IMO) more useful definitions.

I see what you mean Rev, but I've always considered a wheel plane to be where a typical weave plane is. Up , down ,anywhere I always that it was the ones at your sides I'm still learning tho.
Overall, I'd say Raven's unless someone comes up with a good one. The reason I'm not making one myself is because , like I said, I'm still learning about all this

-Poikid-

Yup, howevers Rev is amongst the few here that , I think, get deeper into poi than anyone. Way ta go man. Sooooo we getting closer to a dec now?

BUT your hands don't have to be behind you to be spinning a BTH move.
They can be in front of you too, with your arm reaching around behind your head. So the definition isn't just vague, it's also too exclusive.

No... moves where a hand reaches behind the head to the other side of the body to spin a side circle in wheel plane.

there is confusion betweeen the actual hand being bth and the understanding that you have to move your hand bth to get there..

to illsutrate.. a bth weave has one arm headwrapped.. that means the hand had to PASS BTH to get there.. it isn't bth now.. its as said other side plane.. but the arm is still there bth because that is how the hand got there.. had the hand passed in front to the the other side plane we wouldn't think it not being in front now would we? because technically the hand is on the side not in front..

I think this is a little too critical.. semantically speaking.. most of my btb moves do not have my hands behind the back.. just my spinning in the mid/lower rear planes.. I think bth is equal to that in that it is spinning in the upper rear planes.. I really don't see why it has to be much more (if any) in dpeth then that..

Behind the Head (BTH)

Used to describe a move where the centres of rotation of both poi are behind your back rather than in front of you and above your shoulders.

Just a variation on the BTB definition.