Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Ok, the way I see it is like so:
Weave - base pattern
3bt weave - pattern
Fountain - move
Weave - base pattern
Butterfly - base pattern
Impossible weave - pattern
Weave - base pattern
2bt weave - pattern
Waist wrap - move
Weave - base pattern
Isolation - base pattern
Isolated weave - pattern
i.e. a base pattern is a fundamental way of spinning rather than something you spin, a pattern is what most people would consider a move and a move is a combination of patterns.
Does that make sense?
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Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
I agree that beat count effects the pattern.. but I think pattern is specific whereas move is generic..
in other words.. I can say a move is a weave, or a fountain, or whatever... but my pattern will be based of of beat count and the base pattern is that which derived the pattern from...
butterfly weave is a move....
butterfly weave comes from the base patterns weave and butterfly andf derives its pattern from the beat count..
does that make sense
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Yeah it does. They're both valid ways of looking at it
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
The way I look at it is that move is the most general term, pattern is a more specific term, and then base pattern is even more specific. So any base pattern would also be a pattern and any pattern would also be a move.
A move is pretty much any specific motion or specific series of motions that has a name.
Base patterns would be things like the weave and the butterfly. Your basic patterns that get built off of to create more and more complicated patterns.
Patterns are built off of base patterns. The simplest variation of a pattern is the base pattern.
The part I have trouble with is coming up with a concrete general definition for what makes a move a pattern. I'll figure that out and come back to it later.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
I agree with both
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
I think pattern and move are the same thing really, that or I use pattern to discribe a combination of moves. I also think of base pattern as the moves needed... ah nevermind I'm confusing myself. I think:
Weave = base pattern
Move = 3 beat weave
Pattern = waist wrap
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
So I think we're all pretty much agreed on base patterns at least
Let's see which ones there are
Weave
Butterfly
Buzzsaw
Isolation
Wrap
Stall
Hyperloop/airwrap/whatever we're going to call it
Any more? Anyone disagree with me?
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
isolation isn't a base pattern, and i probably disagree but i'm at work and can't type now, spent so much time here that i'm waaaay behind in my work ~ arrhhhh ~ I wish this was my full time job!!!
¦m¦
ps. well done everyone for all the time you've put in to the poidia already ~ it's gonna be a great success
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
My 2 cents...
I don't see how an isolation can be a base pattern, it's more a style of swinging such as split time which can be applied to most moves.
It appears to me that a pattern is simply a variation on a base pattern, that is self explanitory to someone with rudimentary poi knowledge and refers directly to the base pattern and the variation. ie a 5bt weave.
A move is when this explantion of base pattern + varitaion is simply to long winded to be practicably used, or the move simply doesn't rely on a base pattern. hence a different name is used that usually refers directly to what the move looks like. ie flowers, or an impossible weave
I think that where possible the pattern name should always be used as moves names generally come from whoever coins them first and can lead to confusion. Also it is much easier to pick up the base pattern and variation terminology than having to learn a whole string of different names fo sometimes only slightly different moves.
Finally i think to avoid confusion a move name should only be given when the execution and/or appearance of the move is totally different to any other move.
The main problem with this technical talk is that we all use the term 'move' to mean a base pattern, pattern, or a move, but as long as we all know what each other means does this really matter? :roll:
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
wraps, isolations, stalls, and tanges are all things that are incorporated into your moves... these are more stylistic discrepencies, as in they are different wasy to spin a base pattern... thus they build upon the base pattern to make new patterns but are not a pattern in and of themselves
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
In which case the only base patterns would seem to be
Weave
Butterfly
Buzzsaw
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
that's pretty much how I see it.. because either you are spining in the inverted planes (buzzsaw) or you are spinning circles (weave) , or you are spinning opposite (butterfly)
maybe add for pendelum? would that be a basepattern since the pendelum stuff seems to be different form most ofther stuff.. then again isnt' the pendelum based on the stall or is that an indirect effect, since the idea is to spin semi- circles not to stall
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
What about things like wraps and throws? Where do we fit them into the picture? Hyperloops?
All of these could be considered families of moves. And families have some kind of base pattern, yes? Weave family, butterfly family...
So is there a base pattern for all of these? What is it? Are they families? If not, what are they?
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
And the idea of famillies just got a lot more confusing.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
wraps aren't families... they are styles..
throws on the other hand are different.. but throws are classified in the release family...I would say.. and I would ad releasing as a base apttern.. because from the release base pattern you can opt to throw which would be adding moemntum to the poi rather then just letting the poi go of its own accord..
and we have left tangles out so far because spiral and I are close to haveing a concrete defintion of what exactly makes the two different types of tangles different... from there we can define hyperloop and airwrap mroe clearly... right now though.. its sufficient to say that an airwrap and a hyperloop are two completely different tangles (not to mention what is done with the tangles..) in other words, you can do a hyperloop and and airwrap in the same place.. its hte actual tangle type that makes them different.. now tangles don't ahve a family because 1) they don't ahve a base pattern. both tanlges types are different.. and 2) because like isolations tangles are a way of spinning that can be applied to every move..
now the question becomes to we want to genericize family?
as in family- all moves that fit into one category usually derived from that categories base pattern, or from that categories base theory...
or do we want to just go with family being a group that all derive from the same base theory instead of base patrtern...
thus weave is based on the weave theory , the wraps on wrap theory.. tangles family on tangle theory.. etc.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Here's my 2 cents on base patterns:
If i'm gonna teach you to do a 3 beat Weave then first thing i'm gonna do is get you to pick up 1 poi (let's assume it to be your right poi) and spin it on the right side of your body, then the left sid eof your body to get a feel for spinning in those two positions.
Then I'm gonna ask you to spin a simple BASE PATTERN, 2 spins on the left followed by 1 spin on the right.
SO you get that with both hands and then you learn to do a super sweet 3 beat weave.
Some time has passed and i'm gonna teach you to throw 1 poi underarm.
So I get you to pick up your right poi and spin backwards. Then you put your left arm across and throw your right poi under it and catch. This is ANOTHER BASE PATTERN
Now I'm doing this PATTERN ~which repeats~ and kinda looks like a 5 beat weave but at regular intervals I throw 1 poi under the opposite arm then throw the other poi Overarm, catch 1, catch 2. Click for video
So the BASE PATTERN for this 'move' (I prefer to use the word 'pattern') is a 5 beat weave. That is the basic form of the pattern, that's how come it's repeating. But i've also added in 2 more base patterns, an underarm release and an overarm release ~ This is kinda the Flavor of the pattern, and the time that I insert these 2 extra base patterns is exactly the same as when doing Fakies.
So the way I see it is this. You use a base pattern to learn a pattern (or move) and then once that pattern is SOLID, it becomes a BASE PATTERN, upon which you can build NEW patterns ~ which in turn become Base Patterns themselves. By building these up and up you can create crazy looking combos, but becasuse these crazy patterns are constructed from BASE PATTERNS you know they will be totally SOLID and reliable.
¦m¦
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
:5
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
[quote="matt"]So the way I see it is this. You use a base pattern to learn a pattern (or move) and then once that pattern is SOLID, it becomes a BASE PATTERN, upon which you can build NEW patterns ~ which in turn become Base Patterns themselves. By building these up and up you can create crazy looking combos, but becasuse these crazy patterns are constructed from BASE PATTERNS you know they will be totally SOLID and reliable.
¦m¦
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
I'm with spiralx on this one. Matt's definition (the way I understand it) basically means that any pattern that can be built off of is a base pattern, which makes for too much overlap between the two to justify separate terms.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Well if understand Matt correctly, and that a base pattern is any pattern that can have something added to it, and that you could take sevreal base patterns and varations, string them together to make a move, then I like the way that sounds.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Yup yup. I agree wholeheartedly with Matt on this one.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
yep. Matt's method seems to be the most intuitive.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
It's not the concept I disagree with, just the terminology. The idea that you put patterns together to create new patterns is great, but there's no need for the term base patterns there. You can explain the whole concept just using the term "patterns" and not use "base pattern" once.
So I say we hang on to the idea, but not the terminology.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
maybe. but didnt matt come up with this terminology to begin with? why not leave what its called up to him :roll:
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
i'm up for that, but then this is a community
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Surely then there's no need for him to have posted this section to ask us what definitions we were going to use?
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
quite right spiral, that would be rediculous.
I see what you mean about 'base' pattern being redundant.
I first used the term to describe 1 poi's movement.
Here's some EXAMPLES of base patterns:
base 1 = continuous spinning on one side of body
base 2 = one side then the other
base 3 = 2 spins on one side then 1 spin on the other
base 4 = 2 spins on one side then 2 spins on the other
...and so on...
So the base pattern is for 1 poi only. To describe a Move (which i prefer to call a pattern because it's less fluffy) You must describe the Base Pattern for one hand and then decribe how the other hand relates to the first. This then becomes a pattern/move.
I found this to be a fairly elogant way to descibe poi movements because for the most part both hands do the same thing, just at different timing etc.
Then when i was uploading some pretty complex patterns involving throws and transitions I started to use the term 'Base Pattern' to describe something which you are building upon. Like 'do a 5 bt weave and add a couple throws on either side'. Perhaps this should be something else, i dunno.
Personally I only know 1 'move', it lasts as long as i spin my poi and is different every time
That's why I use pattern to describe something which repeats, the practice moves which i use to do the one big Move.
Terms aside: how do poiple feel about breaking things down in terms of the movement of one hand plus the relationship between both hands???? Cos i really like it.
¦m¦
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
It makes sense for simple moves, but when you get to opposite direction split-time stuff (3bt TTN) it's a bit trickier. Especially seeing as that one is asymmetrical.
But it works fine for the basics.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
I disagree. It works fine for the 3 beat butterfly (split TTN)
Base Pattern for one hand = 1 spin close to body, 1 mid distance, 1 far in the Z-Plane (wall plane)
Relation to other hand = Spin opposite direction, split time
Now this does not describe the move Absolutely, there is still room for creativity, and it may even be applicable to a 'different move' but I think it's pretty good.
i think
¦m¦
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
ok.,.. I got cut off by power outage so let hope this is still relevent... here's my take which re defines family kinda
theory is the idea or concept that fuels a move... pattern is the theory in action, ie the path the poimust take to accomplish the theory... move is pattern and theory combined with timing..
base theory is the family theory..its the most base idea behind the family from which all the other theories in the family are derived..
base pattern is -typically- the pattern that exemplifies the base theory... in some cases this is vague.. for instance tangle family (yes I feel its a family now kinda) operates with one base theory but two base patterns.. thus family is mroe primarily a matter of base theory not base pattern..
theory- 3 bt + weave (or 3bt plus weave base theory)
pattern- 2/1 (or 2/1;1/2)
move- 3bt weave
doing a weave same time is basically like holding your hands together during the weave so that they spin the same path, same time.. only through seperating them into split time does the 3 bt weave change from just a 2/1 to a 2/1;1/2.. this change demonstrates the difference in application of the theory.. 3bt weave with a slightly different pattern same time then split time.. this also shows why a pattern is different from a base pattern.. the patterns made by individual poi are not the base to the actual pattern.. the paths made by the individual poi are identical to the pattern on the whole.. neither one being mroe base then the other.. in other words the right hand does the same thing during both the move and when only doing one hand of the mvoe.. and the move is not the right ahnd base plus the left hand base.. because in same time.. those bases are the saem as each other ans as the acutal pattern... thus i think the base pattern is the pattern from which the new pattern is derived.. this is not to say that the 5 bt is derived from the 3bt base pattern.. the 5bt is derived from the application of a 5bt theory with the same base weave pattern.. so in our example the base pattern is believe is just moving the circle to another plane and back, while the beats are a new variation of the pattern based upon new theory..
now that being said.. I realize I missed two posts. so I will read them when I get back from class...
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Wow. 2 very indepth poiple there. Right on. Hm......... I'll have to think this over. Both Matt and Rev make perfect sense.......
-Poikid-
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
Now I can't make up my mind.
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
For reals man
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
no pattern the word is confusing when applied generically..
pattern as either matt or I have described is clear I think..
Base pattern vs. pattern vs. move
the form or model proposed for imitation.. how clearverly accurate.. since any move that I am doing has a concept.. and an applied pattern... as in this is what happens when I act on this idea.. the idea is for you to understand what I am doing.. if you can do what I show you in my pattern, then you understand the basic skill I'm trying to show you.. whether that purpose be purely conceptual, vs.. wholly effectual... no matter how you look at it.. its nothing more then exactly that.. what I am presenting for you to learn..