Tangle Definitions
Previous text dicussions i've had about tangles...
(aka hyperloops, airwraps, nexuses, orbitals, randy badgers or "did he mean to do that?")
...have been really confused because of the lack of terminology for what is (for us) a pretty new field of poixploration.
some basic terms need to be sorted for some things.
For a start, you can divide the poi position in a tangle into two types.
o - head ; x - handle)
A:[code:1] o o
/
/
x x[/code:1]
B:[code:1] x o
/
/
o x[/code:1]
note that this is unconnected to where the tangle is in relation to you, this is just describing the poi position relative to each other.
also the parts of the tangle can be at any angle to each other: a 90º cross (like a "tangled buzzsaw" is usually done)
or almost parallel (like a "static airwrap" is usually done).
some people seem to term the first one hyperloop and the second one airwrap.
But most people i know mean "dynamic" or "static" when they use those terms, and some people mean "vertical" and "horizontal" 8O
So it's best to avoid talking about airwraps or hyperloops altogher. So i reckon we need replacement terms.
i think that basically all tangles begin and end with tangle type A
and they *can* go into a tangle type B after entry and then go back into a type A to exit.
i think that you can only exit directly from a type B tangle by pulling the heads past each other (or "cheating" :wink
Rev posted this on Home of Poi:
outer plane.. like the outer side plane outer wallplane.. that which is outside of us..innerplane.. between the arms and the body NOT BETWEEN THE ARMS... do a butterfly in front and bounce it so that it comes up under your arms but in front of your body.. ta da inner plane...
inverted plane.. between the arms.. i.e where the airwraps ends/or begins depending on direction...the airwrap works in the iverted wall plane, while buzzsaws are inverted side planes...
Which are good definitions, though not exhaustive.
and i don't like the names very much (sorry rev).
Too much using of general terms (inside,outside) and inverted usually means upside down doesn't it?
for reducing confusion we should use brand new terms, that are ideally still descriptive enough for people to remember them.
: So, any suggestions or corrections or additions? :
cool names for tangle type A and B, and for the arm positions rev describes?
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Tangle Definitions
ps. is this the right forum for this? maybe should be in the encyclopoideia bit?
although good terminology for tangled stuff is definitely a Future Thought. :roll:
my one request if we do make a good system of terms for describing tangles: we call it Knotation
Tangle Definitions
lol.. I jsut posted that planar part in the inverted butterflies section...
the problem I'm having is whether the under part is inner or inverted..
I used inverted fro between the arms because of hand relations... when doign a butterlf outside I have one hand postion... which is the same when I bring it under arm and in front of my body.. but when I bring it between the arms.. oi.. that's a bit diffrent.. and it seems to me that the between arm stuff seems to be the inversion of the other.. kinda like imploding brings the force back in... inverting brings the poi back inside you.. instead of the inner and outer planes which are still outside of you...
this is why I used them in that maner as of late.. because doing a butterfly between the arms requires some kind of inverting of bodily movements so to speak..
now the tanlges types are spot on.. the comoon misconeception is that you have to enter the B diagram from the A diagram... I adnmit that it can be done that way, but its not required.. its all in the way the planes come together... if you have straight planes.. then A is going to happen and you will have to work from there to get to B.. or continue working with more A tangles.. Tanlge B can be gotten into by having angled planes.. I use one hand about as far out as the wrist of the other... that's about the straightest (in terms of parallel with body) B tangle I can get without resorting to going to A first.. and the strings when they hit continue to swing that tanlge B pattern.. now the trick is.. in order to keep tanlge B going.. it has to have string to wrap around as the spin unwraps it.. thus creating the perpetual tangle... a lot of times our hand movements, or the way the poi spin when they tanlge (since force is exerted from the tanlge kinda adjusting their orbits) it can cause it to slip out or to slip into tanlge A which then causes it to slip out...
I like to think of it like this:
[code:1]
L /o
R/o
body
o
L---|--R
o
body
o/L
o/R
body
[/code:1]
that's a hyperlooping buzzsaw... it starts with an A tangle moves through the buzzsaw (which is ALWAYS a B tangle) and exits as it came in, thus exiting as an A tangle.. this can be done in the wall plane as well.. which is why people often thought that the airwrap was a hyperloop in the single plane..
you can also take a buzzsaw weave.. and keep your handsabout a foot apart.. and end up with a tangled buzzsaw... i.e a B tanlge in the buzzsaw that is entered from a seperated swing and exits with a seperated swing.. in other words.. the tanlge occurs upon entering the buzzsw not prior to it.. and untanlges when one poi goes to exit. not after exiting.. this is REALLY hard to diagram.. but when entering a buzzsaw weave (from a rightside forwrad weave) the right poi has to come over the left arm, and up into the buzzsaw.. well move the left arm a little more left and what happens is the right poi goes over the left string... no this going over the string occurs to the left of the right hand and to the right of the left hand.. this going over the strintg is not yet the tanlge but is already in the buzzsaw plane so to speak even though the left poi is outside the buzzsaw in the right side plane.. the poi enter into a b tangle as the the left poi enters the buzzsaw plane.. this is more a crossing of the strings then a tangle (but that's all the b tangle is really).. now as the right poi begins to arc to the left sid eplane it releases the tnesion on the string.. thus lossing the tangle (string corssing) before it ever gets passed the left hand, and thus before it ever exits the buzzsaw...
^---- that is how you get a b tanlge in the wall plane by coming it with one hand hand a little further out.. and thus is my proof that one does not need to do an A tangle to get a B tangle as some have argued..
that being said.. I happen to like airwrap and hyperloop as the distinction
1) because everyone knows them so all it needs is clarification...
2) I like to give respect to my sensei's who coined the terms.. I argued for most of my poi career that their definitions would hold.. and it is was out of my desire to see their names not fade into the background that I sought to understand the tangles..
3) new terms are something new for someone to learn.. and outside of here, they are going to be explained.. well an A tanlge is liek a hyperloop and a B tanlge is like an airwrap..
The floor is now open to outside discussion..
Tangle Definitions
oh yeah and I thought perhaps we should refer to the tanlge family as this:
TANGLE- when the strings collide in a mnner that takes the focal point from the individual hands to a common center...
because the two tangles types are different.. one tangles the other doesn't... the only thing they have in common is the fact that they become a common focal point rather then having the center of spin individualized..
Tangle Definitions
Yeah, i've been using TANGLE definition to mean 'the whole lot of them' for ages now.
But about your saying we should call A- hyperloop and B- airwrap 8O
thats exactly what i want to stop!
your reasons:
No way dude!
1) everyone knows them to mean entirely different things! Clarification is near impossible once the terms are out there and being misused.
2) Drew coined "hyperloop", hates the term, and wishes he'd ever coined it. As far as i know, noone 'coined' airwrap. It was just the term that people generally made up when they saw the first few tentative deliberate tangles.
3) An 2 beat inside outside airwrap (which is what i mean when i say airwrap, in common with most londoners i know) is purely A.
A hyperloop can have inner beats in the middle with some B
The inclusion or exclusion of inner beats (B) is NOTHING to do with the distinction in London which is where the terms came from. i agree it would be more logical if the term did mean A & B, but they just dont.
Tangle Definitions
whoops, forgot to say:
yeah you're right, you CAN go straight into B tangle. Don't quite have my head round it yet, but i can picture it from buzzsaw weave (although i can't do buzzsaw weave personally...)
although maybe it's just passing through A really quickly?
Yeah, at that point of "hooking" and "unhooking" both hands are on one side of the tangle, aren't they......
ow head hurts, going home from work now...
oh dammit, and i just realised at one point in the above post i confused inverted and inside AGAIN
goddam terminology, its inside my arms so it should be inside not inverted grrrrrrrr :evil:
Tangle Definitions
I was going for simplicity sake.. its really up to the masses... its one of these things where I could not care less.. the idea behind them is set.. its communcable etc..
new terms just breed new problems.. I could call it a guhuvafuk and when I tried to explain what a guhuvafuk was later someone we be "oh an airwrap.. or oh that's just a blah" I don't know if it will take.. its harder to establish a term then it is to redefine a term... that's all I'm saying.. I could go on calling it a perpetual tanlge and actual tanlge.. because that's pretty much how I refer to them now..
Tangle Definitions
hmm, but we are the masses.
and i get confused when i talk to you about tangles, because of these terminology issues. Yes, the ideas are set, but they aren't EASILY communicable.
hmm, this seems to be our main point of disagreement.
Tangle Definitions
I'm with Simian on this one... we're all using the terms slightly differently, and it's causing far too much confusion and need to completeley redefine everything every time.
Tangle Definitions
[begin uber-rant] all I'm saying is that we ARE setting a proper definition.. thus elimnating the confusion.. the confusion isn't because there are these terms.. its because the terms are meaningless. the uk term on airwrap and hyperloop are the same thing.. so one moves to another side. what the hell you think its doing when it stays in the wall plane.. there is no difference going from a right side plane to a left side plane then from the outer wall plane to the inner.. NO DIFFERENCE...
we've seen what happens when you rename things.. i.e nexus.. it failed..
the point of the encyclopodia is to clear this up/.. which is why some of our definitions we ahd of things aren't what is going to be accepted in the terminology.. that's what the point of all this was.. I thought.. I could be wrong..
I'm not REDEFINING anything... No one has ever been clear on what the airwrap was.. by that I mean there was a defintion but it did not always concide with what was being done.. some people said it was one thing but in practice did the other.. so how can we lay blame on a bad definition when most of the time people didn't realize it was different.. they did what I dubbed airwrap and claimed it was done the other way.. not all, but most.. its harder to do the one that most people claim it was.. I am now being clear on what it is.. hyperloop HAS NOT CHANGED... its still that tangle.. its just new understanding of planes means that it can be done in the wallplane as well.. that isn't redefining, that's saying oh yeah this thing also matches that description.. and as for airwrap, instead of saying well this might be an airwrap or that might be an airwrap I'm saying THIS is an airwrap.. by that I am giving a clear definition.. what is wrong with that? its not like I'm taking the term airwrap and applying it to a butterfly weave..
renaming everything everytime someone disagrees gets us nowhere.. it just adds ridiculous amounts of terms to an already useless lexicon.. these words mean things.. that have principles.. they can be graphed.. we are no longer working off of base assumptions..
all I'm doing is bringing a clearER picture of whats going on.. you have 2 terms.. you have 2 tangle types.. what's the problem? [/end uber-rant]
edit:
"Yes, the ideas are set, but they aren't EASILY communicable."
I dunno.. 2 terms.. 2 tangles.. what more is there to say?
Tangle Definitions
hmm, i feel that UK poiple would disagree. They've been using their definitions for over a year and a half. You might not find it a useful division (and i kind of agree), but that doesn't mean you can decide it should be thrown out.
Consider when describing a tangle in a years time:
cue a 4 hour conversation and no moves learnt.
whats the problem with calling A & B something liiiiikkkkeee
*plays with microsoft's thesaurus a bit*
Overlapped and Intersected?
Two brand new descriptive terms not currently used in our poi terminology
or we could call them A and B. Kinda catchier maybe
Tangle Definitions
the only reason I say their airwrap is wrong is because I thought I was doing what the uk'rs called an airwrap (i.e the wallplane A tanlge) but i wasn't.. when I realized that I asked everyone I knew to show me an airwrap... there was a discrepency between what they claimed was happening and what they were actually doing... EVERY one.. now I haven't seen everyone spin.. but ever person that I've asked to do an airwrap has done the b tangle.. and claimed to to be doing a.... so my point was its not a redefining.. because the definition was never accurate.. what people were doing vs what they thought they were doing.. so by saying an airwrap is a btangle I'm not saying that the definition is redefined.. I'm saying what most people do as an airwrap is the b tanlge..so there fore shouldn't the name airwrap be what they were doing.. not the misconception that they thought they were doing... why hold a definition that probably never was...
again.. I could not care less.. I'm trying to keep things simple.. ebcause renaming puts a claim like these are something new... and they aren't.. it also has to spread far beyond this community.. we'll see how that works.. I never redefinied any term.. just clarified b and pointed out that there are more things that match a's definition... including the definition of an airwrap in uk terms is exactly the same as the hyperloop.. funny huh.. because outer to inner, outer to inverted.,. doesn't matter.. same as outer right to outer left.. its all the same.. so you ahve two terms to one thing and one of them doesnsn't stand for what most think it does..
but whatever.. Im not going to bother.. I'm sick of being asked for my opinion and then when given told OMG you stupid prick.. you started a thread on hop... I answered your question you bit my head off.. you started a thread here, and as I had to point out in the encyclopoidia though I feel it needs be resttated here, "I AM PERFECTLY AWARE OF WHAT OTHERS THINK..." I can read there posts.. my post is not made in ignorance.. it is made in belief.. I post what I felt on the issue regardless of whether that's what you wanted or not.. I know you wanted new terms.. lots of people do... I don't see what's wrong with the ones we've got.. THAT IS MY OPINION... deal with it.. I'm not saying bow down to it.. I'm saying deal with it.. accept it.. move on.. what we name it will be decided at some other point.. not in arguing with me.. because you won't change my mind.. even if new terms are coined.. I will use them for simplicity sake here, but doubt much elsewhere.. this thread is supposed to be about what we feel it should be called and what not.. I made my point you and spiral made yours.. let others make theres.. our bickering has been the same since way long ago.. lets leave it to others we've said our peace..
Tangle Definitions
well its a pity we can't form a common language, cos we've clearly got tangly knowledge to share...
Tangle Definitions
i rather like rev's terms due to the nature of the words. in an airwrap, the strings are wrapping in the air, not actually tangling... thus, this is the term set i plan to use as i learn to manipulate tangles. and a year and a half is not very long for a term to be established. once they delve deeper into tangle theory theyll either come around or continue being confused. this encyclopedia is a glossary of the terms that make the most sense to us. let them call it what they will.
Tangle Definitions
the scores 2-2 at the top of the fifth.. home team has the ball.
Tangle Definitions
dammit, now the americans are ganging up on us... :x
Some more reasons that Airwrap & Hyperloop are rubbish names anyway. I really don't know how many you want...
an Airwrap doesn't change direction like other wraps. The only wraps that don't change the rotational direction are thru-wraps or european wraps (where you wrap and turn).
a poi on poi thru-wrap is a 2 beat A tangle, or hyperloop by your terminology.
Hyperloop is was and will always be a rubbish name that Glass just made up when he was being silly.
Essentially it means 'beyond a circle' which is TOTALLY undescriptive of what it does and is.
(hyper doesn't mean fast, I'm pretty sure thats just a corruption of the meaning of Hyperspace from Science Fiction stuff.)
Having said all this, i can (kinda) understand Rev's new post about tangled weaves. But i wince whenever he's written hyperloop to describe A tangle.
The terms as used by UK people have already disseminated to loads of people not on HoP or here. If we develop a different terminology using their terms but with new meanings then confusion is the obvious result.
You guys seem to be saying "tough luck, i don't care, i'm going to use my words for no reason other than stubborness."
don't worry, i'll probably give up and stop whining soon...
Tangle Definitions
I don't want anyone to give up.. we aren't saying this to be stubborn.. people there may not understand.. but tat's because stubborn can be applied to you guys as well.. instead of taking a definition that works.. (ala 2 tangles, and 2 terms) you guys are saying screw it all lets start over... we're saying you don't have to scrap it.. you say we're gonna use the term anyway.. and you guys are saying you won't ever use these terms.. so to each side the other is a wall...
I just though I would add.. hyperloops... hyper (excited; fast) loop (circle; repeated path)
as in when you make the conical tangle.. everything speeds up through a set path that you must manipulate in order for it not to quickly spin itself out..
airwraps appear to wrap the air... or trace the tangle.. I mean wht the hell else do you call what its doing.. the strings wrap somewhat liek a thru wrap.. they are bent around the other string but never actually wrap around it.. hence why they aren't tanlges.. which are full wraps.. instead of through wraps.. .. and if you doubt this.. then take a hyperloop and hit it about a quarter or furtther from the poi head.. let it spin til it stalls out and then watch it recoil back out (and you can't argue that you are stalling it.. because what do you think you do with a wrap, but spin til it stalls on the body and recoils..).. a hyperloop then when tanlged and brought to the other side is no different then wrapping or thru wrapping a wrist to get extra beats in a weave... besides.. I believe if you do the standard airwrap it looks like they wrap in the air.. not in the sense wrap like wrap and recoil, but wrap.. they each do one circle and boom back out.. not to mention that an airwrap also can spin down and change direction.. those are the ones I prefer to do.. I use them more the same direction airwraps..
Tangle Definitions
Let me get this straight
An airwrap is always type B tangle.
A hyperloop (as we call it
) is an A then into B then out to A tangle.
You normally enter/exit moves via an A tangle, using isolations you can enter/exit via B tangles.
Tangle Definitions
hyperloops don't ahve to pass throught the buzzsaw they are just a tangle to a tangle.. they can go alpha beta alpha.. but that's the hyperloop with a buzzsaw... I am correct simian that in both our definitions of the obsolete word hyperloop it went from alpha to alpha.. alpha beta alpha was a variation..
you can enter and exit beta tangles without isolations and without alpha tangles.. that's what I meant by a tangled buzzsaw.. but it also happens with the airwrap..
beta tangles always exit as they entered.. as in.. you enter untangled they do their thing and exit untangled.. if you enter with an alpha tangle then it does the beta tanlge and then will exit back an alpha..
Tangle Definitions
Ah yeah I see what you mean with airwraps.
And when I said hyperloop, I did say our definition of it
So then an airwrap becomes B tangles, hyperloops A tangles.
Tangle Definitions
I know you put in the "as we call it
" but I wasn't sure if you meant we as in you and the people you spin around, ie the ones wthat still use the term hyperloop.. or we as in spherctacular poiple.. who I thought were searching for another name for the beta tangle (since you and simian were bent on new terms and obliterating tha old ones..)
consdiering the latter we wished to destroy hyperloop in terms of some new betaloop.. lol.. I thought the we must have been in reference to the people that still used the term hyperloop...
I think I think to much... doh did it again..
Tangle Definitions
we wanted new names yes... what do you guys make of making two categories...
A tangles as knots... they are always either twisting or untwisting.. that's part of how they work.. kinda like tying cirlces and untying circles.. for every circle you tie an a knot, you untie an equivalent circle in another plane.. thus helping newbie learn how to extend the knots, longer by tying 2 circles untying one and then tying 1 and untying 2 ..
you can also add the idea of a tanlged knot.. or what used to be known as a hyperloop that passed through the buzzsaw position... since the buzzsaw position is always a tangle even if entered as a knot...
finally b tangles can simply be tangles.. they are a perpetual tangle.. that's all they do.. they never tie up.. the just forever tangle.. and the buzzsaw tangle is perpendicular where as the normal tangle is parallel..
the butterfly knot really helps push this idea I think.. it doesn't use old nomenclature.. its simpel direct.. and best of all it helps work better I think as a teaching tool..
so what do you guys think... :53
Tangle Definitions
I like it
Tangle Definitions
well if Alpha is a Knot, and Beta is a Tangle, then what word do we use to describe all knotted or tangly poi moves?
i don't believe i'm being so argumentative about this... but i'm so pissed off with people all using terminology in different ways that i want these terms to be really watertight and idiotproof.
:idea: Actually, alpha and beta seems to be working quite well as terminology...
Tangle Definitions
well with knots and tangles you put them in different categories....
if you really must put them together.. then come up for a term whcih refers to the moving of the center of spin off both poi to the same fixed point.. because that is really the only thing they have in common.. something like coupled, or linked..
which link works well because then you can throw link-catches in there.. and any other move where the poi are joined..
Tangle Definitions
ok, so our new and improved knotation terminology runs thus:
Link
Any move where poi intentionally come into contact with each other
Twist
a state where the link is crossed like this:[code:1]o o
/
/
x x [/code:1]
Tangle
a state where the link is crossed like this:[code:1]x o
/
/
o x[/code:1]
those terms are cool with me daddio :cool:
You sure? i think this is only true if you do more than 2 beats in the starting twist, otherwise the "twisted tangle" you go into will be identical to a "tangle".
or am i missing something?
Tangle Definitions
kudos on the transition... and I'll post those definitions up in the other section..
and I'm human..so i'm fallible.. but yesI'm sure..
see it works liek this.. you can get into a tangle without knotting first..
think of a tangled buzzsaw (whose name doesn't change word) when I enter a tangled buzzsaw from the right side of a forwrad weave I bring the right poi over the left arm like I would with a buzzsaw weave.. now do this with about an 12" gap between your hands.. this results in a tangled buzzsaw.. basically the poi tanlge as the second one enters the buzzsaw (ie. between the left and right hands.. ) and the tanlge ends as the first poi goes to exit out the other side...because the tanlge occurs solely to the left of the right hand and to the right of the left hand.. it is containt wholely within the buzzsaw.. thus making an unlinked poi exit unlinked even though tangling within.. this is very similar to the one beat knot.. because instead over tangling and going outside this tanlges and comes inside.. I saw that only in comparison it doesn NOT actually tanlge on the outside.. it can be made to look that way.. the same as a tangle can be made to look like a wall plane knot.. because at that point the buzzsaw plane is so narrow it looks like it could go either wya.. and looks predominaantly like a knot.. but if you keep your hands seperated about 10-12" you will see that the tanlge doesn't happen until they are in the buzzsaw space, and untanlge in the buzzsaw space.. they are tanlged for such a small period of time its almost like they bounce off each other..
this makes for seperated, tanlge , seperated... thus a tanlged buzzsaw..
it can also be done knot, tangle, knot.. thus a tangled knot..
check that description of the tangled weaving.. just the part where I talk about moving the arms on the side to keep the tangle spinning while your arms move around it.. if you do that weith just a tangle.. it will make a full rotation set and then untangle.. however if you start with a knot and then enter a tangle and do the motions I described.. then it goes through a full rotation set and can go into another second set if you would like because its still tangled.. then nifty thing about the knot is it sets up a sittuation whereby only knotting one beat outside before taking inside allows for you to have one poi exit and start a tanlge back the other direction.. well in the case of the funky rotation stuff, it allows the poi to keep doing their thing until that full beat is done outside that lets them unknot.
I dunno I'm finding it hard to code a diagram.. mainly because I can't think when I'm hungry...
I'm better explaining from reverse.. but if you do a reverse tangled knot.. from right to left.. with the left hand at the 12 and the right and at 6, when it gets to the left let one poi pass to the lef tof you left hand and then move your hand left so that the second poi makes another spin inbetween the arms.. you will see what looks like a tangle hop up the left string.. and the poi start movingback towrads the right side.. well you can't get that with just a tangle.. the minute that firstpoi is to the left of the left hand.. your tanlge is already gone if it was jsut a tangle.. so that one beat helps right there to keep it going.. because the second poi never makes it back outside. and thus never lets the knot release..
does that make sense? probably knot lol.. I don't ever go into accurate enough visualization..
all I can say is practice the horizontal tanlged buzzsaw.. it will tangle and you have to move your hands to dodge the poi.. that one also would take paragraphs to explain.. sugffice to say its a horizontal version of the side thing I talked about in "tanlged weaving.. or something like it.. "
I can't really be much help at the moment.. let me work on it somemore and get a batter way of describing..
Tangle Definitions
You've already confused me by talking about a "knotted tangle"
The paragraph you quoted makes perfect sense to me.
Tangle Definitions
tanlged knot.. an alpha tanlge that passes through the buzzsaw.. its a knot on one end and a knot on the other and a tangle in the middle..
basically the hyperlooping buzzsaw to use stoneage terms.. tangled knot now.. helps account in nomeclature for the discrepency that occurs when you pass a knot through the buzzsaw..
Tangle Definitions
so which terms r we staying with?? im a bit lost after all those explanations im a bit confused!!
Tangle Definitions
this is all pre the final bit of discussion that happpened over in the encyclopoidia..
we are using tanlges (airwraps)
Twists (hyperloops)
and knots (combination of the two..) not necessarily done in any specific format since I can start with a tanlge and end up in a knot and then exit a twist.. which has been my problem here lately.. entering a tanlge and exiting a twist kinda screws up some of the things I'm trying to do, but on thew other hand it makes things possible that weren't possible before..
Tangle Definitions
[quote="emigre"]so which terms r we staying with?? im a bit lost after all those explanations im a bit confused!!
Tangle Definitions
:5 for spherculism
So the poidia's really cleared the whole airwrap/hyperloop problem.
Now we have Tangles, Twists and Knots plus airwraps and hyperloops.
Well, thats got it staight in my head for sure :55
¦
¦
Tangle Definitions
Yeah, it is a bit overly confusing. I think I'm just going to refer to number of cycles (0+) at each of outside/inside/outside and how I move the tangle around.
airwrap - tangle, untangle
2 beat hyperloop - tangle 1bt outside, move tangle, untangle 1bt outside
hyperloop I learnt first - tangle 1bt outside, 1bt hyperloop buzzsaw inside, untangle 1bt outside
360 hyperloop - tangle 1.5bt outside, turn 360 degrees in hyperloop buzzsaw, untangle 1.5bt outside
etc.
Tangle Definitions
ok well i think im a bit clearer on all that now
but... whats an airwrap? :oops:
Tangle Definitions
Pretty much just bouncing the poi off of each other so they carry on going in the same direction as when you started. Spin both poi in the same direction in front of you, hit the two together near the head, keep your hands still and they should tangle, untangle and carry on.
Tangle Definitions
cheers spiralx!!! im a lot less mind boggled now
Tangle Definitions
wait a second isnt that like a hyperloop then?
Tangle Definitions
Yeah, but it doesn't go anywhere... your poi end up doing exactly what they were beforehand
Tangle Definitions
but again.. the nexus (tangle point is different) in 3 different ways.. and this affects what can andcan't be done with them..
for instance an airwrap and a wall plane hyperloop are different by nexus but similar in appearance.. hell, I've been spinning extrended airwraps so much that I do wall plane hyperloops shorter then my simple airwraps..
so there's a difference in what can be done and how it gets done.. the logic of moving a 360 degree airwrap(tangle) is fundementally different from a 360 hyperloop(twistie), which is fundementally different from a knot..
and there's things that can't be done with some nexi... for instance the turning of the axis as far as I can tell can only be done with a knot.. nothing else can get the proper torque....
and to top it off you can be shift between any of the nexi wothout ever moving the poi.. ie. the poi spin the same orbit but the nexi change)
so I think it is very important to be able to distinguish them.. 1) airwraps and hyperloops work decent for some discussion, typically that of the outer design.. does it stay or does it move and vaguely how.. 2) the twisites, tangles and knots allow us to further understand on a deeper level..
ultimately the output.. both poi spinning from a tangled center is the same.. but almost everything I do now, can't be described with airwrap and hyperloop.. its give and take..
oh and circles and what what not also don't really helpe.. because again.. I can shift between a twist->tangle->knot->twist->tangle and so forth.. without the ppoi moving from the orbit they are spinning, which consequently can be done anywhere.... thus creating a whole matrix of confusion, or fun depending on how you look at it..
Tangle Definitions
*shrug* In general the only difference between an airwrap and a hyperloop when I do it is whether I move the tangle through planes, the actual character of tangle is the same, the difference is in the angle between the line of the poi between your hands and the tangle and the line of the poi between the tangle and the heads.
There is the extended/higher order tangle where you go into the tangle on an odd number of revolutions of poi heads, which is useful in some situations as it takes longer to untangle... use it for 360 degree turns for instance. I think this is what you mean by a twist but I'm not sure. And in theory you can go into a hyperloop/doodahwotsitthingy after any number of revolutions if you can get the momentum and timing.
Tangle Definitions
here's a quick jest...
airwrap.. can be a wallplane hyperloop or a tangle.. the nexus type can vary.. It is primarily seen as static..
hyperloop.. this a dynamic tangle.. it can be taken through multiple points.. it is primarily done with twists and knots...
nexus.. the center tanlge point.. in some cases there can be complex nexi or multiple nexi..
tangle.. nexus that is between the arms.. infinite in rotation (momentum pending) ex. tanlged buzzsaw
twist.. this is when the poi twist around each other.. and thus must untwist an number of rotations = to the twist.. these are what oldschollers use as hyperloops and airwraps.. these are able to be extended by either twisting up longer before moving, or by alternating differnt sides by beat so as to maintain is.. 3 twists, 2 untwists 1 twist, 2 untwists done... the twisting and untwisting are dtermined by the direction of the poi
knot.. this has TONS of variations.. theselead to complex nexi.. these are made of some combination of tangle and twist.. I say some combination, because that's the only thing they have in common.. they can occur in a number of ways.. these make it somewhat mroe difficult to tug the poi (pull apart to increas speed and/or balance), but yield more torgque thus allowing for more precise and diverse movement/altering of the nexi.. in its simples form a knot looks like the first part of tying a shoe.. over, under, pull,... there's your knot..
the reason I don't go by where cirlces are is because 1) the cirlces go by way to fast to keep track of.. 2) the rotations don't affect the overall movement or shaping of the nexi with tangles and knots.. so I may have it spin 8 times one time.. 4 time another..
the onyl things rotations affect in those instances are whether its even or odd.. whether is lead or off beat.. which I can't really tell anyway.. again because they are too fast.. you can jsut tell when it doesn't go as you want.. by watching the nexus and altering the nexus as needed.. (where possible) mostly its just a timing thing.. I can't really explain it.. its like the wind and the counter-wind.. I can't really explain it enough which is why I gave up on tangle theory for now, and the tanlge debate..
Tangle Definitions
Hmm.. so if i fakey out of a forward 3 or 5 bt weave into a tangle in the wall plane which I carry across to the opposite wall plane and carry on, thats an airwrap, NOT a hyperloop, right?
Chut (annoyed because he thought he was doing hyperloops
)
Tangle Definitions
No, that's a hyperloop. It moves.
Tangle Definitions
[quote="Rev"]knot.. this has TONS of variations.. theselead to complex nexi.. these are made of some combination of tangle and twist.. I say some combination, because that's the only thing they have in common.. they can occur in a number of ways.. these make it somewhat mroe difficult to tug the poi (pull apart to increas speed and/or balance), but yield more torgque thus allowing for more precise and diverse movement/altering of the nexi.. in its simples form a knot looks like the first part of tying a shoe.. over, under, pull,... there's your knot..
Tangle Definitions
that's the whole point.. the knot is like wraps.. there are tons of variations.. which as why I was so confused in all that stuff that I posted here and in the poidia.. which is why almost everytime I learn something new it was leading to confuse me more..
however I'm starting to get a lot better with them.. and thus am learning more.. but no where near enough yet..
see a lot of people end up in knots and don't realize it.. for instance I can take a tanlge and make it a knot in two ways.. 1) I pass a beat out.. winding it up a notch.. (not a beat out losing a wind ) this is done via adding a twist to the tanlge.. 2) I can wind the tanlge.. this is harder since winding at the wrong degree provides and isolation and unhinges the tanlge.. however most of the time this curves the strings around the poi a little more causing the shoestring knot in my post above.. depnding on the tanlge a more complicate form of the shoestring..
ok so I guess three things since you can do a combination of the two as well..
alright.. to further complicate issues.. you can have multiple nexi in very close locale.. this is not like nix described with the double hyperloop.. this is when one poi forms a knot around the other poi.. but the other poi is only tangled.. sometimes they have two knots tied on each other, or into each other.. this is HELLA crazy... but Imean you have to realize.. when you make your hands move independent of the poi.. you can have them move around the nexi just as much as the poi move around the nexi.. so its no longer straight beats out.. because I can do a spin that doesn't noticeably go outside.. because the rotation of the hands... move the position of the string from hand to nexi.. this is the main focus of the nexi.. so by moving the strings at different angels I can get a beat "outside the arms" that never pases outside my arms.. if that makes sense..
for example if I'm spinning a nexus in front of me.. lets say a tangled buzzsaw.. and I lift my left arm up enough the poi can pass to the left of that string but to the right of my hand.. (the poi diameter is in most casses smaller then the hand to nexi diameter..) this is a minor example.. but it hammers in the point..
so I can turn and shift my hands around the nexis as I please.. and I can feel the effect it has.. as in the tighter of a knot I get the more torque I have.. the more I can change (however strong or weak) the axi that the poi spin... whereas the closer I am to a base tangle or twist, the less tension there is upon my hands.. and the more freely the poi spin their own way.,.
is this helping any?
Tangle Definitions
Yeah, I think that gives me something to play around with
And I'm already doing the ones where you wind an extra beat outside to go into a knot, you're also talking about doing it inside which I've not tried.
Tangle Definitions
yeah but see the reall kicker are the beats that occur ont bottom and top and all those other weird angles...
not to mention the ones where one string knots up more then the other..
see what I'm having trouble keeping organized for description (and understanding/advancing purposes) is the fact that on the one hand you have 2 sets of axi.. the poi to poi and handle to handle.. these are the major axi to be worked with.. but on the other hand.. to some degree you ahve to keep track of the handle to poi and handle2 to poi2 axi.. because at times this becomes important.. and for those of us with a 3rd hand, it becomes important to focus on the 4 axi: handle to nexi (2x) and poi to nexi (2x)...
The bonus to all of this... hehe.. I've figured aout a lot of mind game stuff even though I don't use any of it.. because from what I've been able to pick up on my own.. I can do a lot of the mind game stuff these kids do.. just by combingin my tracers knowledge with my tangle knowledge.. so anyone interested in that might want to keep that in mind..
oh yeah.. and knots is the WAY BESTEST term ever for this shite.. notonly because tis accurate in terms of look and feel, but when you get into dsome of the complicate multi-nexi, I've managed to pull one poi out of the tangle, leaving one poi with a knot in the string.. kinda reminds me of that horseoe puzzle where you have to get the ring off.. LOL..
Tangle Definitions
I'll have a play round with it this weekend but some of it to be honest sounds like it falls into my category of "pointlessly complicated". Is there really any bonus in ending up in such a complicated knot, especially if you're not using glowsticks?
Tangle Definitions
to be honest I haven't spun my chains to really find out..
I just know that with sock poi and with with sticks this allows you to get all sorts of craziness.. because the different knot types have different effects...
for instance.. the basic knot and the more complicated versions there of add your ability to shape the axi.. thus turning, moving, and flipping the poi in orbit..
one poi knot allows one to shift the other pois axis..
but the main point is.. its not really complicated.. its just complicated to describe.. the control it gives is ridiculously cool.. I can do anything I want with the poi tangled.. which gives rise to two things.. this ball object that people pay attn too.. and me and my motions.. think of it like contact juggling (the moving of the ball around the body) without the poi touching the body...like a hovering orb that you can just roll all around without ever touching.. MUCHO cool imo.. the understanding is the part that is tedious.. not the actual practice of it.. it more in the abiloity to manipulate the knots.. as in I know that I'm in this knot and what I need to do to get out of it.. so that when I use an airwrap or orbital to get into say a crosser, I know when and how it will exit..
I mean some of the motions in rolling the ball around get you into really complicated knots that you have to know how to get out of or else just kinda untangle your strings when momentum dies you know..,
that's where this REALLY helps the most..
Tangle Definitions
[quote="Rev"]not to mention the ones where one string knots up more then the other..
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