Define ~ Tangle
Define ~ Tangle
Tangle
a state where the link is crossed like this:[code:1]x o
/
/
o x[/code:1]
this creates a perpetual tangle motion.. Tangles exit as they enter.. if you enter a tangle from a knot it will exit a knot, if you enter a tangle unlinked they will exit unlinked.. Tangles involve one hand being out of level with the other.. further out/in in cases of wallplanes, further left or right in vertical cases, and further up and down in horizontal cases..
Tangles will spin tangled until brought out momemtum pending.
Category:
- Facebook Like
- Log in or register to post comments
Comments
Define ~ Tangle
Works here, so are we abandoning airwarps and hyperloops altogether?
Define ~ Tangle
here i come again...
I like orbital, cos its pretty descriptive, and tangle is a bit general, more like a family name, and besides its been used to descibe something else, which orbital hasnt.
T :twisted:
Define ~ Tangle
orbital is a glowstick term and I'm sick of getting chewed for people misusing it.. I will not I repeat will not use orbital.. it already has a meaning and context that we are just genralizing...
talk to wes sometime.. he'll educate you like he schooled me..
and beyond that.. i will nto have two words with different meanings.. like airwrap.. its counterintuitive..
Define ~ Tangle
i thought orbital was exatly the same thing as a buzzsaw tangle, granted the stickers do it closer the the heads, but its the same motion, i didnt realise it had another meaning.
and tangle already means a few diffrent things too.....
we could call it a package knot, cos thats the same thing when you tie a cuboid package up with sting... ?
but i guess thats a bit obscure, and not too descriptive.
who is this wes?
T :twisted:
Define ~ Tangle
wes aka mixinluv2u one of the glowsticking.com mods are higher.. he is to glowsticking in my opinion what drew is to traditional poi..
orbiting is not just a tangle.. that's what I thought because that's what I saw.. this orbited that orbited.. fine they are all orbitals.. I'm wrong..
tangle wasn't suppsoed to be the new term.. the new term was to be knot.. tangles I thought were already generic.. all of these are tangles.. well no. they are linked.. they aren't tangles.. som of them don't tangle.. the airwrap tangles.... hence tangles..
the hyperloops don't tanlge.. they tie and untie.. like a knot.. I like tying more then twisting because a lot of the more complex manuevars are like tying.. they are no longer twising around each other but rather becoming intertwined in such a manner that the slightest bit off and its a a real knot.. while they sping they are like vague knots..
and again.. I like it as a teaching method.. itsd the concepts I'm trying to teach not the moves.. that's why I like the term pattern.. these are all patterns.. that stem from a concept.. when you learn to apply that concept you learn new things.. you aren't learning to apply the pattern.. applying thew pattern is doing the move.. its concept in acutality... theory at work.. I don't want you to think in patterns.. I want people to think in conceptually...
the pattern starts when you begin and ends when you stop..and its made of all the concepts that go into it.. these smaller patterns moves if you will are tools to teach the concepts. and to teach ways of applying the concept.. not as a base for your spinning..
that's all.. that's my deal..
Define ~ Tangle
right,
re-read your first def, its a really good def. i just dont like the name. I like the idea of it being called knotted if its twisted for more than two beats before comming into buzsaw position, i think knot is a good term for any odd beat entry exit that ends up with one poi still wrapped in the inside position and one poi outside (so youd get a not from going in odd, or get a knot from comming out odd.) maybe this is the effect im missing (see my latest hop post) and its just a matter of comming up with a non confusing term for the 'stalled' or 'statik' or 'perpetual' state of poi spinning inside the arms.
T :twisted:
Define ~ Tangle
but see they are tangled.. they aren't twisted or knotted.. although they can be.. but you don't knot them.. you do them in a knot.. see the strings are tangling.. as in they aren't ever tangled or untangled.. they are merely tangling.. so if you would prefer I could change the name to tangling so that 1) its somewhat different and 2) it denotes and active temporal sense in which it becomes a process, and thus dynamic... no longer static quantifier... but I think kids might have issue with that.. I dunno.. A tangling.. woudl that help then sir?
Define ~ Tangle
i don't think thats true.
While its true that if you do MORE than one full circle of a knot then go into a tangle then you will need to go back into a knot to unwrap it...
(Does that even work? I don't do knots more than one beat either side)
...in any other case you can exit to a knot or exit straight from the tangle entirely as you wish.
Define ~ Tangle
if by one full circle with one poi then I'm not even talking that..
what i'm talking about when I say you can do a Beta tangle is that you can do it without entering it a knot at all... as in they both enter the buzssaw plane at such an angle that they intersect in the buzzsaw plane.. it easier seen in the wallplane when they come togehter poi orbit and tangle between the farness out of one hand and the in-ness of the other...
same thing is done on the right and left.. where in my example the right poi comes over the left.. but the tanlge never happns until they are slightly past (left) 12:00 heading down and (right) 6:00 heading up.. and the tangle undoes a that same poin t on the othe side.. this is barely tangled in the buzzsaw not even tangle the whole buzzsaw swings..
Define ~ Tangle
i just disagree with this statement from your definition at the top:
The other stuff, like the bit about hand positions, seems fine, but basically i reckon we should keep unecessary qualifications like that out of these basic definitions, just in case there's an exception we haven't spotted. Yeah?
Define ~ Tangle
isolations can tie or untie knots.. but outside of that how are you untying the extra twistie rotations? I'm confused.. mine always have to spin through other side.. unless I break planes.
Define ~ Tangle
[quote="Rev"]how are you untying the extra twistie rotations?
Define ~ Tangle
i didn't think beat had a set definition here..
oh and this is what I think you are missing.. the tangle itself is a spiral'd twist.. hence the shoe lace effect.. (ie. knot) because of this you can't count beats in a tangle... see every beat depending on what kind of nexus you have is different.. some are spiraling further down the left string thus making up for the untying that happens every revolutions.. some of them hold this type of tangle stationary withj a perfectly perpendicular spin.. which then has the tanlge not moving yet accomplishing this twisting and untwisting...
the trick is that you can have your poi spin planes that completely untie all the twists..on the outside.. while inside the buzzsaw.. similarly you can spin planes that twist it up so much, that you have to pul them apart..
basically the conlcusion I came to, is that I'mnot going anywhere with all of this because the deeper I delve the less sense terms have in any of this.. see once you enter into that tangled state in the buzzsaw.. you are breaking a plane.. I call it locking the plane.. because a twistie.. twists in one plane and untwists reflective to that plane.. a tangle is a perpendicular plane.. no matter how flat (parallel) with the body you make it.. it is still to some degree perpendicular..as in it can never be parallel.. (hence why twisties need straight even planes)
now because of that what happens is you lock thepoi in a rotation.. they are spinning a circle.. now you are working with the outside circle.. think of those nasa machines.. they strap you inside a circle.. that is fixed inside another circle, inside another circles.. and thus you can get each of the circles to spin different ways.. my manipulating the 3 axi.. well in this version, instead of having the axis attached to the side of trhe circle.. the axis passes through the circle straight to the heart.. thus when I do a tangled buzzsaw (mo matter how I got into it) have a circle spinning about an axis perpendicular to me (the poi) and an axis that is prallel with me the strings( to myhand)..
this way you can seriously wind the spin, by finding that timing where your outer angular momentum compliments the sprialing pattern in such a way that it speeds up the spin.. (not pulling.. but speeding up the spin through slow turns..) this can also be accomplished at different angles.. which in turn makes this uber difficult to diagram...
the only thing I can say is think of those gyrating circles.. I want to use the term gyarscope but I thing its wrong.. its like an intense perpetual motion machine.. as I spin my outer axis a given way it adjust the orbit of the poi, and these slight angle turns, not only gett it to revolves about different axi, but also get it spin more 3 d shapes.. by that I mean an orb versus an orbit... eveyone I see spins these two diminesional (not literally, but figuaratively) tangles.. they spin either perpendicualr or parallel.. now I understand (however vaguely) what I as doing.. and why nothing I seemed to lay down made sense..
anyway.. hopefully that will get your wheels turning.. I think a wrote a little more on how direction does/doesn't matter.. but again if you follow the description of the nasa thing.. you should understand why direction doesn't matter.. or rather it does only relative to the axi. not to the spin.. because you need to keep that spiral going.. thus keeping the shoelace knot..
that's all I have topost.. I'm gonna take a break.. get my head together.. I haven't been able to focus on my work all weekend.. so I'm logging 9ut for a bit.. probably only a few days knowing me.. a week at most.. peace out..
Define ~ Tangle
8O wicked brainfood post there dude...
but i reckon you view tangles too narrowly by saying that the poi heads chasing each other must be orbiting in a perfect circle. Think about this stuff:
You can change their lengths individually by sliding one poi in or out of the tangle
(low friction poi help. i used some satin cone poi that were awesome for this)
You can change the speed and plane of each poi head individually (something i find happens automatically when i move a tangle around, and i have to compensate for)
You can change the orientation of the handles either side of the tangle
(like in the low or high point of buzzsaw fountain, but you don't have to do the exaggerated movement usually associated with the buzzsaw fountain if you don't want. Just think about it in terms of arm position around the tangle, and you'll find you can do it really small in front of you)
So there are many wobbly, strangely timed or syncopated ways you can do tangles.
Please don't reply with "yeah, but they don't look nice." because that's entirely subjective.
i don't like it when definitions are narrowed down beyond the basic constituents of a move to take in 'style' as well. It's part of my whole hatred of people being told they aren't doing things 'properly' if they perform a move in a way [i]stylistically[i] different to how others do it.
Define ~ Tangle
well see I look at it like this... when I tanlge.. the poi aremoving an orbit which is derived directly from the tangle.. as in I can pull one further from the other giving it a smaller orbit, or I can turn twist the tangle canging the direction fo the orbit..
the part that really gets confusing is that the poi are constantly spiraling around different axi.. as in when I do a twistie.. my poi are tanlging about themselves.. as in the more they twist, the smaller their orbit becomes.. and later they untwist.. but.. when I do a tanlge.. they are spiraling in teh same direction but almost not.. by that I mean they are spinning a staitonary orbit.. this means that for the most part the axi are set.. as in I have an axis that runs poi to poi and an axis that runs handle to handle.. this is a product of the tangled shoelace knot thing.. because as my string for my left poi curves (roughly 90 degrees) around the other string, it creates a perfect perpendicualr angle, mirror'd by the other string.. this effect is what creates the perpetual tanlge.. in that one poi is always untangling what the other poi is tangling..
now the part that makes this significant is that the orbit created by the axis of poi to poi can be manipulated further by matching the spiraling motion that occurs during the spin process.. this is where that nasa thing somes in.. because the nasa thing is attached to the outside of the circle within the other circle.. ours are slightly differnt.. in that our axis is straight through, but our circles are intangible.. our circles are an abstract path, they don't acutally exist.. but we manipualte them via the axi, the same way the circles inside the cirlces of that machine are turned..
This becomes increaingly difficult since we are using pseudo axi.. as in we really have no axi at all but the strings create to axi effects.. kinda like gypsies spinning a scarf and making it as rigid as a spear.. the motions we make via centrifugal force of the poi create for them one axis, while the firmness (or very suttle tug) of the hands forms the rigidness of the second axis. .. a biproduct of spiraling the spiraling tangle and the forces exterted in 4 directions..
This creates and instance of rigidity that can be manipualted so long as you maintain that shoe string knot (otherwise known as a tangle).. the catch is that you have to figure out the proper outer spin (handle axis) to compliment the inner spin of the poi.. these are suttle turning operatiosn some going with spin, some going against spin..none of them I believe are complete circle motions as I previously thought.. which is why I could only get it so far before collapsing..
so what we need to understand is:
1) the leading poi.. the lead poi is doing the actual tangling, while the chasing poi is doing the untangling.. this is really hard to keeptrack of after its been spinning a while..
2) the path that the hands must make (ie. the outer sphere thing) to turn the inner axis properly.. if you exert near equal force form all 4 points (the 2 poi and the two handles) then you create a situation where they are all in an equilibrium and thus firction holds the tanlge allowing one to turn it.. this is wher I get lost because I go from spinning a clockwise circle to out away up and towrad and so forth.. bascially making switches from buzzsaw leftto right, to buzzsaw front to back, to corkscrew buzzsaw, and back to one of the others.. *insert migraine here*
3) in addition to the path it would be nice to find that angualr harmony, by which with regular tangled buzzsaw, you can speed the buzzsaw up.. this is also a biproduct of the rigid 4 fold.. by maintaining equal force on all the ends you can spin the outer axis, like you would be isolating only MUCH slower.. you catch the groove of the spiraling tanlge and the friction catches and you can turn the tangle.. this kicks up the speed of the poi in their orbit.. this is not just an isolations.. I know I'm not that good with isolations, but I can isolate and this isn't quite the same.. in other words its an iolation with respect tosome unknown.. itxs not the tangle.. the reasonI say that is because I get mulitple spins of the poi in their orbit to each section of the circle spun by my hands when getting this winding effect.. I don't know how else to describe it other then it feels like winding a clock..
if we can follow the lead poi, digram the orbits required, and hammer out this winding thing, then we are left with a tanlge that will spin as long as we can maintain the winding motions.. and instead of spinning a mere circle it will spin a pattern that spirals around the center of the tangle creating an orb-like effect..
I dont' know if that helps anyone or what..
oh yeah and simian.. you are taking the cirlces too literally.. I understand that the poi are spinning 3d spirals when they move through this..hut it makes discussing this almost impossible in that respect.. if you stop to think of the poi as making orbits.. that is spinning circular paths relative to the tangle.. because in essence that's all they are doing.. whether they move further in or further out. wobble this way or that, they are still orbiting the nexus of the tangle.. (I like nexus the more I use it.. does dantana ever post anywhere anymore?) the goal here is to further manipualte the motion that they are spinning.. think about a rock is flying through space.. it gets caught in the gravity pull of a black hole.. (think of this like it catching a tanlge and you are pulling the tangle) so its jerked from its normal path and begins to spin a spiraling pattern toward the balckhole.. now.. it doesn't necessarily spin a straight flat spiral.. it depends on how its was pulled from its trajectory, and its position relative to the blackhole (tangle)..
In poi terms this means that mos t of the time we tanlge from a flat plane.. like weave or something.. where the planes aren't majorly discrpeant.. this creates a more stable and flatter tangle orbit.. then if I connect bring my poi in to each other from very distant planes.. like taking my left hand as far out as it will go andmy right hand as close to my body as it can be and then pushing the right hand forad and pulling the left hand back.. this type of tangle will wobble all over.. The effet that we are looking for is to keep as best we can these flatter more controllable orbits, and trying to make precise turns of the axis, that allow it to form a controlled wobble.. once we induce the wobble then the its a matter of maintaining control over the wobble so as to conitnue manipulating the axis as we desire...
See the poi will have an axis poi to poi.. but that is made from the same string as our handle to handle acxis.. so in order to release the tangle the poi have to spin orbits that do not allow one poi to keep tangling.. the minute the lead poi makes a loop -not- around the the right tstring, it looses twists..it beginsto unravel.. however.. if we turn the hand-hand axis appropriately, we can move the left and right strings into the path of the poi.. thus causing them lead poi to wrap around the string at that point producing a new turn effect... as long as our hand-hand axis stays on equal sides of the sphere, and as long as they keep passing at intervals that maintian the tanlge, voila we can spin a sphere..
this is in part basedon my previous discussions.. of taking a regualr tanlge with the left hand out and the right hand in and switching them to right ahnd out and lef thand in.. in order to achieve that you must find the poin where you corss in between the lead and following poi with the appropirate strings, that that may continue their tangling, untangling..
anwya.. I've post wayyyyyyyyyy too much on this already.. and dont' ahve near enough physcis or math background to fully understand what I'm doing.. why oh why did phys cal have to be nearly 7 years ago??
hopefully someone can follow up on this stuff.. I really dig it.. but I'm quickly getting over my head.. or at least.. I'm quickly surpassing my brains daily thinking ability between this and school.. which sucks.. because all I can think about is this stuff, and its getting me nowwhere.. its like a riddle that you just have to crack before you do anything else.. thought puzzle what ahve you..
Define ~ Tangle
Again i agree with everything you say, but you have to make the distinction between
A) The definition of the tangle
B) The way you find is best to do it
And you have four axiseses -
(what the f~#k is the plural of axis?)
um yeah, you have four axeses, not two, whenever you link (every axis emerging from the central nexus).
You can keep them all pretty much aligned (handle with handle, head with head) and that's usually the simplest way to perform a smooth looking pattern.
But you can move them all independently too, and remember that these movements of axeses can be completed in a half or quarter or eighth of a beat, meaning you could pop out of and back into the usual tangle position without the poi coming out of the tangle at all.
Define ~ Tangle
axis is the plural for axe....j/k but i think it's axis for both just pronounced different, axe-is for singular and axe-e's (think italian/spanish accent) for plural
Define ~ Tangle
the plural of axis is pronounced axe-ee so I've been spelling it axi...
I also know that there are 4... but you need 2 in order to turn them properly... yes it can be done with each independent.. but slow down.. its FRIGGIN hard to turn them with 2, jumping to 4 independent axi is moving way further ahead then where we are..
now..if you can turn them better with 4 independent axi, then by all means..explain away.. I jsut think we need to slowly work instead of theorizing further..
by working with the visual of 2 axi, you are better able to work with the tangle as one unit.. which is the goal.. the goal isn't to wobble hands and poi in 4 directions. right now the goal is to form to consistent orbits.. the poi are easier manipulated as a set rather then as individual poi.. this is a biproduct of them sharing the same focal point..
Define ~ Tangle
i still think you're confusing the basic constituent of what makes a tangle with 'how you usually do them'.
If an independent axi tangle isn't a tangle, then what is it?
This thread is about the DEFINITION of tangles. Not how to do them easily, or how they 'usually' look.
Anyway you are working on deliberate independent axi tangles. That thing from HOP you called 'jumping the tangle' and i confusingly tried to call a 'multi-beat airwrap'. That involves manipulating the four axi so at some points none of them are in alignment, doesn't it? And it is a tangle (although mine has bits where it briefly goes into and out of twist)
so it's not so unbelievably hard is it?
Define ~ Tangle
no.. the thing I posted on hop is bad diagram wise.. but clear picture wise.. its a hyperlopoping buzzsaw.. that does one beat outside then returns back the other way.. that is a hyperloop where only one beat (half beat tanlge) before entering the buzzsaw.. and now.. just becaaue one poi goes outside doesn't meant hte axis isnt' strraight.. from poi to poi centered on the tangle is ALWAYS a straight line in anything I post.. unless otherwise stated... that axis is never wobbly in itself to make it unstable having independent poi axi..
now you also are making the assumption that what I am discussing is the only tangle.. what I am discussing can be done with a tangle.. and further helps to undertand how the tangle works.. this is not the easiest way.. nor is this just how I do them.. these are other qualities thatI am posting about.. things that all are part of this sametangle phenomena that we are seeking to understand.. the knot is for instance.. is a tangle.. it doesn't twist.. its just a tangle.. hwoever its a knot.. I dont' know how to descirbe that.. which is why I've left all this alone..
the tanlge part of a twistie tanlge twisteie is different from just a tangle.. twhich is different in other ways.. that's the point I'm getting at with all these desecriptions.. wthese are different ways tangles work.. this is what they look like.. this is what they do.. in order to have a clear tanlge definition other then 'it crosses like this' then we must account for that..
the enter and exiting thing is fine.. I can take that off. .but I think the tangle is stillmroe than 'they cross like this..'
I dont undertand where I'm tyrying to force a definition of tangle anywhere.. I haven't even posted a definition of tangle in mylast few postsd.. I've jsut stated that we need to understznd a 2 axis tangle.. alla one axis hand to tangle to hand.. and another axis.. poi to tangle to poi.. before we can understand 4 axi poi to tanlge and poi to tangle and handle to tanlge and handle to tangle..
please.. can we go back to discussing the tangle.. and how it works.. we are obviously nowhere near a proper defintion yet.. so lets just do as we were.. continue discussing the tangles.. I just ask that we move one step at a time.. which means dealing with the basic tangle before dealing with the complex ones.. ie. dealing with a 2 axis tangle before a 4 axis.
Define ~ Tangle
bahhhhh, tangle, inside the arms
twistie, outside the arms
tangle knot, inside the arms with an extra beat of outside first
fucking hell, i mean guys, you are seriously ovvercomplicating the issue, all of you. No-body got enough on tangles and twisties to go any more than this, weather your pulling what on what sting and what head does what is a thing for the moves thread, not definitions.
Ive given up on terminology, if you dont know what it means, you probibly cant do it.
as long as we get out physical decriptions right we shouldent have to worry to much.
T :twisted:
Define ~ Tangle
Yeah I was playing with letting it do the extra beat before brining it inside the other day... definitely going to take some getting used to, but for some sitations it works out better, especially turning 360. I was occasionally doing it while turning before and could never figure out why sometimes I could turn all the way and sometimes not
Define ~ Tangle
I told you that stuff helped.. BUT sorry mr Nix.. you can knot without an outside twist.,.. I do tangle knots all the time.. from straight tanlges.. that's why I refuse to post any definitions for this at this time..I am far to ignorant of what's going on.. I learn mroe everyday...
Define ~ Tangle
I think I'm just being really dumb here but would I be wrong in saying:
Tangles: Moves in which the poi bodies collide and create a new center of rotation for the poi heads.
Define ~ Tangle
yeha I figured these were outdated...
Tanlge is a type of nexus..
[code:1]
L r
/
*
/
l R
[/code:1]
L-hand R-hand l-poi r-poi
its a link where one poi leads the tangling and the other follows untangling.. there's a better description in the hyperloops section I'll see if I can't post that one here...
*the reason things were confusing is because tangle was a term we applied to the whole genre as well...which we've been using link for a long time now to help rid that confusion..*
Define ~ Tangle
[quote="Rev"]*the reason things were confusing is because tangle was a term we applied to the whole genre as well...which we've been using link for a long time now to help rid that confusion..*
Define ~ Tangle
I've always known tangle as the generic term, and IMHO it sounds better than link.
Link sounds like something simple, like what you are describing.
Tangle sounds more complicated and less defined (more like a family name) for instance - outside poi, if you say eg- "This string is all tangled" you mean it's a mess, full of knots. And if you say- "The [objects] are linked" you generally mean theres a simple connection between them.
My tuppence worth
Define ~ Tangle
again... how do you distinguish generic tanlge (any nexi) from a tanlge.. (particular nexus)
Define ~ Tangle
I don't think we ever came to a firm agreement on any of this in any of the threads previously...
I'm going to press for tangle as the generic name because we've already got the tangled buzzsaw etc. and people know what it means.
And it sounds better than link IMO...
As for distinguishing particular types of tangle, well we have two directions of tangle (same vs. opposite) and then different "orders" (made up term) of knot depending on how much the tangle is wound up. For instance a tangled buzzsaw can be gone in with arms level for an "order one" knot or with arms crossed for a "second order" knot - you can swap between the two by moving the poi inside and out of your arms. But they're all a "same direction tangle".
Define ~ Tangle
but a tanlgesd buzzsaw is exactly what a tangle is.. as in.. the nexus tanlge is the tangle-type (to use your generic term) formed by a tangled buzzsaw..
link however is already been used in other places..
link catches
link wraps.. etc.. these are already established names that all follow the same premise.. the linking of the poi via one of the nexus types..
confusion abounds from using tanlge as a generic term AND as a nexus type.. using tangle generically means the tanlged buzzsaw needs a new name for its nexus because of said generic preference..
which will also add new confusion..
Define ~ Tangle
But I can do a tangled buzzsaw with different types of knots. The move is the same, the only difference is in how tangled the knot is.
Define ~ Tangle
barring the use of the nexus term tanlge.. I still would have to argue that having a knotted buzzsaw would be substantially different then a tangled one.. I mean... a knot is a knot.. its not tanlged.. you can tangle into a knot (this is all non nexus speak) but essentially the conclusion/distinction you still have to draw is whether it is tangled or knotted.. in the end they are all linked.. how they are linked varies...
contra they are not all tanlged.. a twist is not a tanlge nor is a knot a tangle.. (again speaking non nexusly, though the nexus argument applies in both respects)
its like having ye ole generic term airwrap.. which means.. I don't know enough about what I'm doing to actually name it something that is descriptive enough to matter..
but nwo we do know enoughto qualify things one way or another.. to go back to useless generic terms.. halts progress... and is utterly futile to our efforts..
Define ~ Tangle
I go into a tangled buzzsaw, move one poi outside of my arms and back in and I've got a knot. But apart from the degree of tangledness it still does the same thing and I still manipulate it in the same fashion. The only difference comes in when I again move the poi outside of my arms - there's an extra half "beat" to get it completely untangled.
PS. What does nexus mean?
Define ~ Tangle
nexus is the focal point of everything we're decribing.. its how the links are made.. its that neat vortex that everyone used to to think irrlevent under generic terms like hyperloop, airwrap, or even tangle... the point is the nexus defines what type of connection it is..
and a tnalged buzzsaw and a knotted buzzsaw are different... they may look the same but their not.. why you ask? because one has a knot at the center and thus isnt' tangled... and the other is tangled.. I mean I don't know how to describe that other then tangled.. in fact tangled buzzsaw is the only nexus that I would consider tangled.. knots and twists don't tanlge.. you may tangle into a knot sure, but whether you tangle into a knot or whether you tie a knot doesnt really amtter because at that point.. its just knotted..
Define ~ Tangle
I never said they were the same, of course the type of tangle/knot/whatever differs, but if you're just doing the tangled buzzsaw then they behave the same, it's when you break out of that that it matters whether you've got a tangle/twist/knot/doodad.
And besides, you can in theory have an infinite number of different types of knot based on how much you tangle on the outside before entering a tangled buzzsaw. All that really defines a tangled move is the entry and exit - there are plenty of things you can do in the middle they're all basically equivalent moves. Overarm entry tends to go into a simple tangle, underarm into a knotted tangle, we need to have terms for these but not to define moves based upon them as many moves can be done with both.
Define ~ Tangle
your msiunderstanding some thigns there spiral...
1) i'm not adding terms.. I keep suing other terms (ie, vortex) to try and hammer in on the idea of the space there in the center.. the link.. the adjoining.. the point of focus.. the nexus (as it was dubbed long ago by dantana)..
2) they do not behave the same.. a tangle and a knot function differently.. a knot.. no matter how its made.. or how its spun.. or how complicated itis made. ALWAYS acts like a knot.. a tangle.. no matter how its gotten too, and how it acts... ALWAYS acts like a tanlge.. a tanlge for the longest time, I thought at least, was a low grade knot.. which runs along the lines of what you were describing.. knots and tanlges roughly being equal in the way they spin.. but they don't... which is why I got frsutrated at one point and refused to talk about them anymore because I couldn't understand why they were different.. and now I do..
its torque.. the way they link (not just the nexus, but the shape and other aspects too) the amount of control one has..
they don't work the same.. the only thing that is the same in any respect about tangles and knots.. is the outer appearance and the fact that they are linked.. and to qualify them all together, just makes no sense.. at that point just go abck to hyperloop and airwrap.. seriously.. because what you have essentially is the hyperloop (outer twist) and the airwap (tangles and knots) now you have a way to lump categories..
but personally I'm not going to go back to that.. I'm sticking with dantana and select others over time, because there are more descriptive, and more accurate terms needed.. you shouldn't talk about a link as anything other then a link.. as in you should never discuss a link as any sort of motion outside the nexus.. the only thing that makes, defines, etc a link is its nexus.. which fall into three distinct groupings.. ANY link falls into one of these three groupings.. and NO link falls into more then one.. I mean that's a scientists dream description wise, because it becomes a perfect form of classification..
essentially what this is coming to is that we have (as has been as long as I've been doing linked stuff) two forms.. the old schoolers and their 'its tangled' (generically) and you 'hyperloop' and 'airwrap'... and the new generation and their descriptive terms.. (and this war is much older then me spinning as a whole)
but just to be clear the ONLY time a knotted buzzsaw and a tangled buzzsaw work the same.. is if you are letting them spin like say an orbital.. if you move.. twist turn.. EVEN STILL IN the buzzsaw position.. I'm tlakiung about never leaving the buzzsaw position... you can do different things with each.. every link lives breathes and acts according to its nexus.. and every act of linked anything is a manipulation of the nexus.. that's it..
Define ~ Tangle
Well then, let's have some precise definitions of each term then...
Define ~ Tangle
:54 :4
we do have precise terms...
the link- this is an adjoining, conjoining, coupling, bond, connection, junction, or any other term that you want to use to dilneate the factthat the strings come together...
how do they link? well that's defined by the nexus...
the nexus- this is the center, the focal point, the link itself, the vortex by which the link works, and operates etc..
what kind of nexi are there? well, there's really 3 solid categories by which ALL links fall into.. twists, tangles, and knots...
twist- (do I need to post the diagram?) it was known as a hyperloop, outside airwrap, and a few other things... this is where one string twists around the other.. thus twisting up rotations in one plane and untwisting rotations in another plane.. twists occur when the poi are both to the outside of the hands.. think fishtail..
tangle- this is an inverted link.. was commonly known as an airwrap for a long time as well as a tangled buzzsaw.. the poi link and spin between the hands.. one poi leads and does the tangling, and the other poi follows and untangles.. keeping a perpetual tangle that never actually changes..
knot- this is the biggy.. knots can be anywhere, inside or outside.. and they are based mainly in combinations of twists and tangles.. However.. a knot can be formed without using twists or tangles.. (basically there are a number of ways to tie a knot.. whihc stem straight out of nexus manipulation.. yes you can tie a knot by moving between twists and tangles, but knots can also be tied simply by string manipulation)
the important thing to remember is that knots overlap with the other categories.. because the base categories of twist and tangle cannot operate outside of certain conditions.. which is why knots are preferable to anyone really wanting to explore link potential.. its also lends to confusion (like tangled buzzsaw and knotted buzzsaw) and the like.. this takes a break from the hyperloop/airwrap thing because you can move an airwrap.. and you can keep a hyperloop static.. which ultimately unmakes those terms.. and if you say an airwrap that moves is now a hyperloop then you are really pushing the terms so general that they have no use at all..
by focusing on these nexus types its easier to describe what you are doing and how.. take a tangle for instance.. I can move a tangled buzzsaw around without ever knotting it.. and so many of the things I can do with my knot can be done to some degree with a tangle.. that does not make them the same.. if I have a tangled buzzsaw and I exit from the buzzsaw, it will come undone.. if you have a knot you can exit from the buzzsaw and still be linked (either knotted still or in a twist)..
my final point is that the term link can be applied generally.. 'hey link and do this because there are times when it doesnt matter' but there are also times when it does matter and you have to be specific, because certain nexi just won't work.. since none of these terms overlap I feel that should make things quite simple no? in addition it already in corporates ideas that have already been around.. ideas like dantanas concept of the nexus and how they differ.. ideas like the link: link catch, link wraps, etc.. that are also already around before we started this discussion.. the only terms that are new in any way, are the names of the nexi types.. which we discussed way back when as being simply related by their configuration (and perfect description) twist, tanlge, and knot...
sorry if that seems long.. I don't really see anything complicated in there..
Define ~ Tangle
[quote="Rev"]sorry if that seems long.. I don't really see anything complicated in there..
Define ~ Tangle
that varies by link type...
for example.. link catches are kinda irrelevent on the nexus issue.. whether you twist or tangle, you get the same effect.. its like an airwrap or hyperloop, the nexus point doesnt really matter to suffcie the point.. ie. airwraps don't move.. (which can be done with twists tanlges or knots) same goes with hyperloop being one that moves.. same goes with a link catch.. same goes with some link wraps...
the nexus comes in for working basics of transitions and major movements.. anytime I link into something or link combo and what not.. odds are I'm typically going to manipulate to have to manipualte the nexi types to get what I want..
for example... if I link catch to airwrap.. I don't need to concern myself with what nexi I use.. however depending on what I want to do with my various link combos, like link catch to hyperloop to btb hyperloop to hyperloop... I'm going to have to understand my nexi so I can manipulate them accordingly..
in the end.. you eventually can use words generally.. like I did an airwrap.. which for all intents and purposes is vague.. you could do any nexi.. but to explain patterns like the front -> btb -> front hyperloop (not the split version like in my clip) you have to understand that hyperloop doesnt suffice.. only knot suffices.. or maybe I knot, twist, knot.. etc.. to describe what you are doing at that point... because not all combinations work.. ex. tangled buzzsaw vs knotted buzzsaw.. a tangled buzzsaw will undo as it exits the buzzsaw.. a knotted buzzsaw wont.. depending on what outcome you wanted..
so I guess..
link- a move in which the poi are linked, adjoined, whatever...
nexus- the focal point of the link
Define ~ Tangle
So what you're saying is that
link = generic term for this type of move
nexus = point at which poi bodies are connected
? Just trying to be concise
Define ~ Tangle
link= generic term for this move set... not just the typical stuff (airwrap type things, and hyperloop type things) but anything linked... (I only put it like that because there are times when I've done a twist and then grabbed the other handle so as to have a better grip when I do one handed stuff.. which I don't really classify assomething 'different' but to keep all the bases covered you know.. )
Nexus= yes, the actual point where they are connected..