body movement

Drew bringing this up got me thinking.. and then insignia's 9th bt no wrap planes shift got me thinking.. and then thought on giant weaves and multibeat crossers... and it clicked.. hey.. this is me taking advantage of body movement to pull of otherwise unfeasible mvoes...

what clicked it was trying to explain to someone how to do a giant 3bt weave.. (since that is the highest beat) because that kinda of motions is how I get things like a 3bt straight jacket weave..

to let you see where I'm coming from i'm going to show you my train of thought..

1- the giant weave... you ahve to keep your hands extend fully the whole time.. thus center of rotation is at the shoulder.. but the shoulder is locked in place... so you have to turn the body to keep spinning.. which technically adds the distance between the shoulders to the diameter of the poi head to poi head circle.. if you lean forward a little.. you can spin a giant circle in one plane.. then turn into the other plane and back.. giant weave.. it looks weird when you do it 3 bt because the poi stay in planar orbit relative to a 3bt weave.. while the body movement (you) end up doing some 180's..

2- tyou can naturally see where this can be applied to crossers.. (especially the straight jacket) because fixed points like your hands in a crosser cna act as the shoulder position in the giant weave.. and since giant weaves max at 3bts.. so should the crosser.. mimic the motion..

3- if you take a 7bt weave and lean forward and continue twisting the arms up in to the chest... a hand lines up on either side of the neck and you can do the same twist above to get the extra spin and thus make it 9bt no wrap.. to which they can thru-wrap (carry over) on the neck if you wanted an 11bt half wrap..

so.. lets talk about body movement (in any way) and the things that can be done with it..

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hey man, im currently writing some stuff on motion and movement, looking mainly at very basic ways of controling the poi and developing skills connected with movement. so far it has taken much time and much text, and thats probably the reason people cant be arsed with it. however, all this twisting stuff really intrigues me, because ive never come across it until that video of you twosting up to an 11 beat weave was it?!? this has got me thinking about the concepts behind twisint and how that relates to some of the stuff ive been writing. since this post is very old, no doubt things have moved on mightily....

so, can you give me some basic concepts to work with from the point of view of someone who knows nothing about this?
hopefully we can put something together to teach this effectively
peace

to be honest.. I'm probably not the best person to talk to about this... I'm not sure how coherent any of my ramblings would be right now, becase I'm really confused..

body movement has helped me learn a lot.. but not much has helped me learn about body movement...

I would recommend learning more about crossovers.. most people try to place their crossover straight out in front.. some even try to use most of the hemisphere from head to toe as crossover space.. but I think its more importatn to think of simply where your poi crossover.. because I can swing the poi with a crossover that is say 10:00 in its circle (the poi diameter) and still be only about 1:00 in a head-to-toe circle..

[code:1]
Me
O *<-- poi crossing at 1:00 in a head-to-toe sized circle..
+
|
/
Facing ->

|
* |
9--+--3
|
|
poi at 10:00 in its circle
[/code:1]

crossovers are important because the better placement of your crossover, the less twisting you have to do.. crossovers are an inflection point (?) so that's the max that you would be twisting that way.. for instance, once I reach the above croossover point.. my poi are no longer going clockwise as I look to my right but counterclockwise on my left.. now because the crossover is a maxim of sorts, there are lots of ways that we can meet that quota.. Some have more degree of leniency than others.. I'm sure you have lots of slack in your 5bt weave now, but when you first learned it, I bet you could barely make it reach.. since you've learned how to put more of the twist in your arms, you don't have to worry as much about whether or not you will still be able to make the crossover in time before the poi twisted up.. I'll come back to this in a bit..

I'd also recommend that they look into center of spin techniques.. mainly concentric spinning (whihc is part of most of what we do.) concentric spinning lets you look at poi like a spiralgraph (?)... Flowers are a good example.. but pretty much anything we twist is a flower compressed down into the diameter of the poi.. when you start looking at everything form the point of view of centers of spin, it becomes a little easier (eventually) to put movmenets into perspective.. because rather than reducing everything to one center of spin (ie. one poi diameter sized circle centered where the two wrists come together), you open yourself to exploring the ways in whihc you can bring different cneters together.. its basicaly like nesting motions..

using mutliple centers of spin we are able to create new centers that dont exist. ala isolations.. we are also able to change the shape of the path of the poi. antispin is more + shaped than o shaped.. we can even look at the body ina similar fashion by treating the waist like a wrist and the turning of the body like the turning of a shoulder socket..

one final thing I'd recommend is for them to try and understand the degree crossover.. I'll have some vid clips next month showingwhat is meant by these.. degree crossover is an incredibly efficient way to keep track of twist.. better than beats.. if you bring your forearms next to each other I can briefly go over it..

side by side is a 0 degree crossover.. because.. well... there is none.. reels, buzzsaws, and butterflies all fall in this category...

if you cross one over the other, you get a first degree crossover.. this happens in a ttn, and on either side of a 3bt weave..

twisting another 180 gives us a 2nd degree crossover.. and so forth..

using this method, its easier to keep track of what you are doing.. a 3bt weave has 3bts per side.. but a 3bt antispin weave has 5.. but they both only have a 1rst degree crossover because they are both only twisted 1 degree.. this helps let you know how much farther you can go, so that you can flow better.. you can focus on how much further or less you want to twist, and to hell with the beats.. taking a 4bt turn gives you a flower, taking a 1bt turn gives you a circle.. both twist the same, but are very different..

and now you combine what you know about those 3..
isolations give you the freedom to create new centers of spin, as well as new shapes that can be made.. one of the most important uses of this is the arc.. an isolation can make the poi arc around say an arm, rather than keeping the string in straight line between the hand and the poi... fr instance if I want to spin my right poi around my left forearm, I can either hop I have enough room to get my hand to do a circle around my left forearm so that I cna keep the string betwen my right hand and poi straight.. or I can cut down on the space I need by adding a little isolation and getting the poi string to arc thus allowing my hand to stay 180 degres behind the poi, without the forearm blocking them.. isolation based arc are the key to fitting the poi in places that they are really to long to fit through..

you can apply your knowledge of crossover points in two different ways.. first you can try to adjust the crossover point of the poi to match with the goal you intend for.. or in other cases you may find that you cna only crossover in certain places, and must then move your body (arm, leg, shoulder, whatever) out of the way for that crossover..

finally, the degree of twist, lets you know how your centers are coming together.. maybe you can turn your arms more but your legs are locked in place for balance.. or maybe youneed that extra waist twist to get over to the right side..

ex.. think about a 1rst degree crossover (3bt weave) with a crossover point down, versus a 2rd degree crossover (5bt weave) with a crossover point at the top.. (assuming the weave is going the same direction from the same side.. ) Sphism/smilesmiley

hopefully you cna pick from that rambling and find some information that's helpful to your project.. I wish I can be of more help.. but I'm kinda taxed mentally at the moment..

just looking through that quickly has been big help. will have a better read tomorrow and get abck to you. cheers dude.
peace

ive been looking at this in conjunction with that wideo of twisting up for high beat weaves and its made some things clearer. but i have some questions.

Quote:
I'd also recommend that they look into center of spin techniques.. mainly concentric spinning (whihc is part of most of what we do.) concentric spinning lets you look at poi like a spiralgraph (?)... Flowers are a good example.. but pretty much anything we twist is a flower compressed down into the diameter of the poi.. when you start looking at everything form the point of view of centers of spin, it becomes a little easier (eventually) to put movmenets into perspective..

ok man, so as i understand this, its saying to focus on the point at which the spinning is initiated, (if we forget about isos for the moment). personally i always focus on the fingers that have direct contact with the poi and have done everything i can to make them the epicenter of control for the motion of the poi so that regardless of anything my arms are doing, the fingers are responsible for where the poi move and how they move. (this has meant that antispin was much easier to get a grip on). are we saying the same thing, or is there something else i should consider to understand where youre coming from? i think its the same principal......

Quote:
but I think its more importatn to think of simply where your poi crossover.. because I can swing the poi with a crossover that is say 10:00 in its circle (the poi diameter) and still be only about 1:00 in a head-to-toe circle..

i dont fully understand this example as the time reference points dont make sense. im just not used to the diagramatic stuff youve used to explain this. could you clarify it a bit? i think i get the principal, but i want to be sure....

Quote:
crossovers are important because the better placement of your crossover, the less twisting you have to do

when you say twisting here, are you talking about the body, the arms, or the wrists? or all of them?

Quote:
twisting another 180 gives us a 2nd degree crossover.. and so forth..

i guess this would be the 5 beat weave, but twisting what, in what plane, and how does 180 degrees come into it?

Quote:
if I want to spin my right poi around my left forearm, I can either hop I have enough room to get my hand to do a circle around my left forearm so that I cna keep the string betwen my right hand and poi straight.. or I can cut down on the space I need by adding a little isolation and getting the poi string to arc thus allowing my hand to stay 180 degres behind the poi, without the forearm blocking them.. isolation based arc are the key to fitting the poi in places that they are really to long to fit through..

this bit sounds really interesting, but can you put it into some kind of move context. thew bit that gets me is 'if i want to spin my right poi around my left forearm'. what plane are you in. im imagining weave? again i kind of get the principal relating to motion, but cant see it clearly enough to understand the concept

peace

jon wrote:
ok man, so as i understand this, its saying to focus on the point at which the spinning is initiated, (if we forget about isos for the moment). personally i always focus on the fingers that have direct contact with the poi and have done everything i can to make them the epicenter of control for the motion of the poi so that regardless of anything my arms are doing, the fingers are responsible for where the poi move and how they move. (this has meant that antispin was much easier to get a grip on). are we saying the same thing, or is there something else i should consider to understand where youre coming from? i think its the same principal......

yes.. for instance.. isos.. have the illusion of a center of spin on the string.. the centers of spin are really the hands and the arms still.. but its how those centers move relative each other that creates the isolation.. same thing for the flowers.. antispin.. and any other movements we have, including the basic weave..

its not just focusing on where the exact point of the center of spin is.. so much as how the circles formed by these centers come together.. arm circles and poi circles.. poi circles and poi circles.. arm circles and arm circles.. etc..

jon wrote:
Quote:
but I think its more importatn to think of simply where your poi crossover.. because I can swing the poi with a crossover that is say 10:00 in its circle (the poi diameter) and still be only about 1:00 in a head-to-toe circle..

i dont fully understand this example as the time reference points dont make sense. im just not used to the diagramatic stuff youve used to explain this. could you clarify it a bit? i think i get the principal, but i want to be sure....

take what you know from the section above that you understood about centers of spin... if you have a poi center of spin, then that means the poi make one circle.. like a clock.. with a diameter of two poi lengths.. now imagine your spinning area as being a circle.. like a clock.. with a diameter of your body head to toe.. the poi can crossover at 10:00 in its circle.. while only be at 1:00 in your body circle..

[code:1]
Me
O *<-- poi crossing at 1:00 in my circle
+
|
/
Facing ->

|
* |
9--+--3
|
|
poi at 10:00 in its circle
[/code:1]
the first is a picture of you from the side.. with an asterisk denoting where the poi is when it crosses from right to left side plane.. the second diagram has an asterisk denoting where the poi is in its circle.. the '+' would be your hand....

to help clarify a bit more.. let me show you how a normal weave would look by this diagram..

[code:1]
Me
O
+ * <-poi at 3:00
|
/
Facing ->

|
|
9--+--3* <-poi at 3:00
|
|
[/code:1]
a normal splittime weave it crossesover at 3:00 in the body circle.. and 3:00 in the poi circle..

jon wrote:
Quote:
crossovers are important because the better placement of your crossover, the less twisting you have to do

when you say twisting here, are you talking about the body, the arms, or the wrists? or all of them?

D: all of the above

[quote="jon"]

Quote:
twisting another 180 gives us a 2nd degree crossover.. and so forth..

i guess this would be the 5 beat weave, but twisting what, in what plane, and how does 180 degrees come into it?

having read all of this while stomingly drunk a lot more makes sense. towars the end it got complicated but i will persvere tomorrow.
cheers for effort to explain all of that!
peace

haha.. I was pretty bent writing it.. so maybe that's why it clicked.. hehe.. if have any further questions.. don't hesitate to ask.. and I'll try an get back to them with clearer responses..

in a slightly more sober state a lot now makes perfect sense. centers of spin - got you. next bit - just to make sure.....


Quote:
I think its more importatn to think of simply where your poi crossover.. because I can swing the poi with a crossover that is say 10:00 in its circle (the poi diameter) and still be only about 1:00 in a head-to-toe circle..

the principal that lies behind the example, as i understand it...... thinking about where the poi cross, (relative to their circle and your body circle), allows you to break the bonds of crossing the poi where you normally do. for instance during the weave you can place the crossover where and when you want, not only in relation to the body and poi circle, but also in terms of where your arms cross, be that close to the wrist, or the shoulder. in so doing, you abstract the basic pattern by changing the timing of the crossover, and this in turn opens up possibilities to enter higher degree crossovers that would otherwise be hard to do or impossible because of colliding poi and unbendy bones.

i get the diagrams now Sphism/gigglesmiley
and the relation of crossovers and twisting.


Quote:
180 degrees comes in because every 180 degrees is a beat change.. it moves to a higher degree crossover..

so we are talking here about a rotation in the hand? for instance, in the three beat weave, if the hands/fingers are controling the center of spin, they continually turn in cycles of 180 degrees. basically turning over the top half of a circle.... in the 5 beat they turn 360... and so on
to illustrate what i mean by the top half of a circle, if you put a hoop around your wrists, arms outstreched, and then suspended it with magic so that your hands were in the center of the hoop; in the three beat weave your wrists would trace the top of the hoop, but not the bottom. in the 5 beat weave, you would trace top and bottom....

im looking at this scenario from the direction the arms are pointing, not from the side.....

the last bit i still don't get. im going to read and reread it again together with the stuff you posted before and see if it clicks......

seems like you ahve a pretty good grip on what I was trying to present.. your explanation of the crossoverpoints was just beautiful..

as far as the last bit.. don't worry.. eventually I have a cam. and I'll film some stuff to sort this out when I get the chance. hurricane kinda has everything delayed at the moment...

Quote:
your explanation of the crossoverpoints was just beautiful

:oops: why thank you kind sir..... had a play with trying some of the suff out yesterday and got a 6 beat weave going which is cool.... will get back to you on that last part at some point when you get out of the bad weather
peace

i think i now understand the last bit. basically youre talking along the lines of inversions, like for instance the buzzsaw inversion thing you can do where you isolate to make it happen.... hopefully thats it. someone showed me how to do the 9 beat weave yesterday and i was staggered by how easy it was having already got the concepts all there.....