Defined ~ Offset Weave

yes but the premise isnt just a weave within a weave... your applying one form of the movement... which is accoutned for in two ways...

context 1) its two offset (lopsided) weaves... that reset each other..

5->2
2->5

not one 5bt weave with a 2bt in the middle...

you can offset any any numeber of ways not just in like sections.. as this...

context 2) the base twist method keeps track of how many beats your weave is "offset".. for example
5 ->2
(+3) 2 -> 5

your counting the whole schema 5->2->2-> 5 as one weave... which is the same error that led to people claiming that offset weaves give stupidly high beat counts.. which can be an issued best resolved by clarifying what makes an offset weave "offset"..

though the description of weave within a weave does prove useful as an instructional tool.. it it nowhere near accurate enough nor descriptive enough to explain the offset mechanics...

the major points of offset weaving are the actualy offsetting and resetting.. which do NOT have to occur continuously as jo does in the video.. which also presumes the only wway to offset and reset is to use the exact same movements.. which is also incorrect... you can offset by any means, by any number of beats, and reset in a manner that matches any other..

wraps -> (+2) +3
(+5) -2 -> (+3) +4
(+7) -7 -> (0) and whatever i go into next..

or
5 -> (+5) -2
(+3) - 1 -> wraps (note: -1 means that only one poi left the right side... )example
L-R-L-R-L (left side)
R-L (right side)
R (left side )
L starting the wrap combo from the right side..

which also is not covered by "weave in a weave"

I'm really sorry spiral.. I don't see how such a narrow description accounts for offset weaves...

how am I wrong?

I said.. that yes they require different beat twists..

I disagree with the armcross, wrist cross business... because I can do a 3bt weave that is.. 1 arm corss and 2 wrist crossses.. each side..

and I dont' undserstand what point you are trying to disagree with me on...

edit:
I still don't follow the confusions and I've tried..

you can't 2bt only offset.. not even 2bt hand motions offset..

5bteats oneside, 4bts the other ???
9 bts onessisde, 2 bts the other ???

how are these 2bt offsets in any way?

and again.. if I wrap into a weave.. my wrpa starts me with a 2bt base.. so that I have

3bts done (2 limbo ) [ie 5bt twist like] and 3bts the other side
and 3bts this side and 3bts this side..
that's a 3bt weave.. its offset semantically in the sense that there are 2 limbo beats.. but I dont' agree because those limbo beats can be done or undone without ever weaving them out... so they don't really need be counted unless they actually appear in the weave.. like say

3bts this side and then 5bts this one..

counting limbo beats on a weave alters the term weave to include a specific hand motion.. whihch is absurd.. a 3bt weave is doign 3bts per side.. nothing more.. nothing less.. no specific hand motions.. and doing a 3 bt weave with the opposite lead hand as is the case in my example, suffices to do just that.. a weave with opposite hand motions..

you could include the definition of offset to account for this.. but then your stretching the term.. because now its no longer a weave with different base twists on either end, and now a weave with a different twist count from the totatl twist count (total twist being actual twist plus base twist)...

I think your oversimplifying a bigger idea...

do 5bts worth of twist on your right side...
now do 3 bts of untwist on your left side... you have an offset weave.. we both agree.. the sides are different beatcounts one 5, one three...
now continue along doing 3bt twist on the right side..
and a 3bt untwist on the left side..
go ahead and repeat that for good measure... what you have there is a 3bt weave... but somethings different... its the fact that you are leading with opposite hands.. (left to left side and right to right side) and you have 2 limbo beats.. because essentially you have a 5bt twist that you are never fully untwisting (ie only untwisting 3bts of) and then retwisting those same 3bt to 5 on the other side.. now this -is- a 3bt weave? by definition of a weave... and its using 1 arm cross, and 2 wrsit crosses (ie. the last 3 bts of the 5bt [1 bt + 2 arm + 2 wrist)

that's only a 3bt weave.. by weave standards... the 2 limbo beats are what cause confusion.. because they are semantically offseting the weave.. from a 3bt type hand motion to a 5bt type motions.. which is why I argue that this should not be considered offset.. but rather refer to it simply for what it is... a 3bt weave with opposite lead hands..

now this leads me to my next point.. different sided weaves.. to offset a weave... I can simply do the above mentioned 5bts right and 3bts left.. now I have different base twists each side.. and have an offset weave (ie its asymetrical) at some point if I would like I could again offset my weave (further disjuncting it) or reset it a number of beats so as to bring it closer to even (if not evened)... or can shoot past even and offset it in the other direction..

that's the whole point of the offset.. the thing is you don't have to automatically reset immediately after offsetting like Jo derry does in the clip.. thus really bringing the power of offsets to light..

now lets say I'm wrapping.. and from my wraps I enter the weave.. depending on the position of the poi relative to each other this can already start with a twist.. as in I might enter into the weave in such a way that I only do 3bts on my right side.. but end up with 5bts (1 + 2arm + 2wrist) worth of twist... in this case I have the potential for an offset weave, without ever disjuncting the weave... as in I could then do 5bts of untwist on the other side and even the weave out... so its asymetrical, yet even out to a 0 base... because I essentially entered the weave with two beats in limbo.. which comes from the 2bts worht of twist aquired when going from my wrap combo into a weave...

I bring that up so as to illustrate that weaves can be offset or reset without ever having to do so from a weave... this is to back up my point that limbo beats from base twist do not actually count as part of the weave their in.. as in, they are not offsetting a weave (as could be semantically argued , see above) because they essentially ahve no bearing on the weave.. the limbo beats can be aquired and dealt with without ever having to spin an asymetrical weave ( which, for the most part, is all an offset is)

does that make sense... you can offset by any number.. it is the weave equivalent of a twist (link)... think of the actual offsetting being like the link forming.. and the resetting as being when the link comes undone.. and think of wrapping into and out of it like using knotted buzzsaws to create twist beats (or unknotting to remove twist beats).. and to complete the analogy think of the 3bt opposite handed weave (the one with the base twist) as being simply a 3bt weave... the same way that an isolated twist neither adds nor subtracts beats because the poi is isolated the whole time.. because the isolation doesnt change the twist at all its not like you are twisting there.. merely isoalting the poi.. as the afrorementioned 3bt is weaving not necessarily offset weaving..

I mean granted there cna be some semantic argument in there.. but I don't really see how this is complicated.. (twist 'x'beats one side, untwist 'y'beats the other) pretty straight forward and easy to keep up with.. as well as not diminshing the scope of what an offset is by narrowing down on a single example rather then whole of the form..

[quote="Rev"]I think your oversimplifying a bigger idea...

do 5bts worth of twist on your right side...
now do 3 bts of untwist on your left side... you have an offset weave.. we both agree.. the sides are different beatcounts one 5, one three...
now continue along doing 3bt twist on the right side..
and a 3bt untwist on the left side..
go ahead and repeat that for good measure... what you have there is a 3bt weave... but somethings different... its the fact that you are leading with opposite hands.. (left to left side and right to right side) and you have 2 limbo beats.. because essentially you have a 5bt twist that you are never fully untwisting (ie only untwisting 3bts of) and then retwisting those same 3bt to 5 on the other side.. now this -is- a 3bt weave? by definition of a weave... and its using 1 arm cross, and 2 wrsit crosses (ie. the last 3 bts of the 5bt [1 bt + 2 arm + 2 wrist)

that's only a 3bt weave.. by weave standards... the 2 limbo beats are what cause confusion.. because they are semantically offseting the weave.. from a 3bt type hand motion to a 5bt type motions.. which is why I argue that this should not be considered offset.. but rather refer to it simply for what it is... a 3bt weave with opposite lead hands..

ok... say I start with a 5bt weave..

5 r
5L
5r
5 l

now.. I decide that I want to offset

5 R
2 L

bingo... its offset...
but... I have beats worth of twist left.. 3 to be exact.. now.. jo derry immediately resets his weave

2 R
5 L

But say you didnt want to do that.. say you wanterd to play with your offsetweaves some more..

you could instead of resetting (so ignore the 2 R, 5 L)
lets

3 R (which puts you at 6bts of twist)
5 L (which drops you to 1bt of twist)
6 R (which brings you back to 7 bts of twist)
5 L (which drops you to 2bts of twist)

now say from here you wanted to jsut weave... not offset weave.. but weave..

3R
3L
3R
3L

those are 3bt weaves.. but because of the 2 bts of twist (ie two limbo beats) the hands are going to be spinning opposite lead hand from normal.. [ let me sidetrack a second.. even beats can be done either hand.. but odd beats must be partially twisted in order to lead with the opposite hand.. coleman called this offset weaveing.. because essentially he felt the limbo beats made the weave offset.. so instead of a 3bt weave it spun like a 5bt (only untwisting and retwisting the last 3 of the 5bts) but I think that confuses things.. I think 3bts one side and 3bts the other constitutes a symetrical weave and thus a weave.. ]

back on topic.. the offset weaves are asymetrical.. in other words.. the amount of rotations on one side do not equa the amount of rotations on the other.. we use offsets a LOT and don't realize it...
for example.. going form a 3 to a 5bt weave requires an offset..
3bt L
4bt R (since you can't get 5bts R unless you do 6bts worth of twist)
5bt L
5bt R

there is an offset weave with -NO- limbo beats.. contrary to the examples above (and like in Jo's vid) that have limbo beats that mus tbe accounted for in order to reset the weave.. whihc is yet another reason why I don't think limbo beat weaves are 'offset' weaves like a lot of people (though not you spiral) argue.. (I'm jsut trying to cover all the bases at once you know..)

now my final note is that you can offset by any beat.. you can offset in odd beats not jsut even (ie 2).. which is a point of yours I have to say I don't and ahve never understood..

I can try to use crosse but that doesnt amke any sense to me.. so let me try it like this (I mean shit number of beats that side and the side I thought was the EASIEST possible thing)

R (as in right side)- 1bt + 2 arm corsses + 2 wrist corsses (5 bts)
L (as in left side)- 2 wrist uncrosses + 1 arm uncross (3bts)
R (as in back to the right side)-

no.. screw this.. this only makes things worse.. because when you talk in terms of arm corsses and wrist crosses your fucked.. pardon my language.. becasue a 5bt untwists half and the retwists half.. hence the ability to open the giant seperation in the middle..

wait I'll give you one more example using this bs corss crap before I drop it..

R (as in right side)- 1bt + 2 arm corsses + 2 wrist corsses (5 bts)
L (as in left side)- 2 wrist uncrosses (2bts)
R- 2 wrist recrosses (2bt)
L- 2 wrist uncrosses + 2 arm uncrosses + 1 bt

that is essentially what jo derry does in his vid.. the first part is an offset weave 5 and 2 .. DIFFERENT BASE TWISTS PER SIDE == DIFFERENT BEAT COUNT PER SIDE...

but you still have 3bts limbo beats.. which may or may not come into play..
to which instead of resetting it WITH ANOTHER OFFSET WEAVE like he does.. you can use more offset weaves to further offset it
"3bts R(which puts you at 6bts of twist)
5bts L (which drops you to 1bt of twist)
6bts R (which brings you back to 7 bts of twist)
5bts L (which drops you to 2bts of twist)"

now I can't put this in your notation... y? because it doesnt work that way
I can't go from a 5bt (1 bt + 2 arm + 2 wrist) into a 7bt whihc is (1bt + 2 elbow +2 arm + 2 wrist)

this crossing notation is bs and fails to work because the -new- crosses occur right after the 1 bt not on the end after the wrist cross.. and the notation fails if I say (1bt + 2 arm corss + 2 wrist cross + 2 elbowe cross)

ARGH

PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PPLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ PLZ get on msn one day.. and I can explain and maybe even show you what I mean..

and offset weave IS SIMPLE...

asymetircal weave.. ie different beat counts each side.. THATS IT... nothing mroe then 2 sides... this is not an offset fountain.. or an offset point weave.. this is an offset weave.. meaning only two points can be considered part of the weave..

if I do 8 3bt weaves back to back then I did 8 3bt weaves.. not a 3bt weave.. sao you can't lump everything into an offset weave (like claiming jo derry did one offset weave that went 5bts 2bt 2bt 5bts.. )

and when you understand that a weave has 2 points.. thos points are either the same.. 3R and 3L hence a 3bt weave.. or they are different 3R and 5L like an offset weave.. that's it.. nothing fancy.. nothing difficult.. nothingincredibly earth shattering.. just two different beat counts per side..

so when you go from a 3 to a bt weave.. bt by bt happens like this

L-R-L (3bts) <switch> R-L-R-L (4bts) <--- offset weave..
<swtich> R-L-R-L-R (5bts) <switch> L-R-L-R-L (5bts) <-- normal weave

that's how you go from 3bt weave to a 5bt weave..

does the above notation help at all because if you go back to all my above examples and keep trakc of things.. here.. let em provide an example...

starting on the right side: (this is one continuous move , like a combo)
R-L-R-L-R (5bts) <switch> L-R (2bts) <switch> [offset weave] {3 limbo}
L-R-L (3bts) <switch> R-L-R-L-R (5bts) <switch> [offset weave] {1 limb}
L-R-L-R-L-R (6bts) <switch> L-R-L-R-L (5bts) <switch> [o.s. w.] {2 limb}

that is this for the record:
3 R (which puts you at 6bts of twist)
5 L (which drops you to 1bt of twist)
6 R (which brings you back to 7 bts of twist)
5 L (which drops you to 2bts of twist)

think of it like twists (the link type)
that's all this is.. asymetrical weaving.. different beat coutns different sides.. which can be any number... see the 3 offset weaves above..

we offset a lot and don't know it.. but offsetting isnt a compicated idea.. its simple.. do you have the same beat count each side.. yes or no.. yes= weave; no= offset weave

so yes I agree that it is different base movements.. but not anything else you've said..

edit:
SET weave= the beat count per side is SET
OFFset weave= is a weave that is OFF of the set.. i.e different beat coutns per side..

at :25 seconds... he does 5 bt one side 2 beats the other then 2 beats then 5bts.. I even asked him in a personal im... and when he does the windmill its 4 bt one side then 2 bt the other then 2 bt then 4 beats..
FACT... I can write him again..

so what he's doing is a 2bt weave in bewteen each half of the 5bt weave.. hence why people talked of offsets as a weave inside a weave..

but.. all hes' doing is offsetting his weave.. ie a set of two different beat counts rather than a set of the same beats.. because a weave is one set ala two points..

and so there is an offsetting weave and a second offset (resetting) weave..

That is one form of offset in whihc it is offset and then immediatly reset.. hence the two weaves..

thus and offset weave is nothing more then a weave with two different beat counts..

I don't really understand what you are doing if not two different beat counts.. because that's all he's doing..

I wasn't able to be around today.. and I am typically in class when you are around in the evenings (from about 1:30 to 5:30 [GMT-6 hrs I think])

and on the 3 to 5 thing.. the only way to go from 3 beats one side into 5bts the other side is to do a 6bt weave twist on the side that you want to get 5bts... because the hand that leads from a 3bt weave is the wrong hand, so if you do a 5bt twist, it misses that first untwist beat (if the 3 side were a 5) and thus only makes 4bts..

that's my point..

others.. as you will see on your hop thread.. refer to offset weaving as anything until the base twist is 'reset;... which is fallicious... and thats the first thing that the pitp people think when you start telling them high beat count weaves..

I'm not saying its all one weave..

I'm saying its a series of offset weaves.. in sets that compliment each other so as to offset (resulting in base twist) and a counter offset (that resets the base twist)

I'm jsut saying that the offset comes from the 5 one side 2 the other.. (or 4 and 2 for the windmill )