twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
last weekend I went down to visit matt which finally inspired me to sit down and figure out hyperloops (something i've been meaning to do for a good few years). The story starts with a maths lecher back in my first year about twist and tangles this was well b4 i came across any hyperloops so promptly forgot it all and it's take me till now to go back and refigure it out.
I should probably say that even though it's based on maths I’ve tried to explain it so that it’s not to mathematical (probably just be my english skills which confuse you more).
the fundamentals are that there’s two type of knot a twist and a tangle. All poiest prefer twists cos if your poi are twisted up (with no tangles) then all you need to do is pull the handles apart and the poi spin round and untwist themselves. tangles on the other hand are more annoying to tangle or untangle your poi you need to jump the head of the poi over the knot (which quite often goes wrong and you end up make a even bigger knot).
right any questions? no, i'll carry on then
rule 1 you can only start a knot with a twist
rule 2 you can't untwist a tangle or untangle a twist.
rule 3 a untwist will only cancel out a twist if there is no tangles between them and a untangle will only cancel out a tangle if there is no twists between them.
a good example of this is
twist, tangle, untangle, untwist will come out.
but
twist, tangle, untwist, untangle won't come out.
right that’s all the maths out the way now it only needs to be applied to hyperloops
airwraps:
simplest to explain they consist of 2 twists followed by 2 untwists
buzzsaw hyperloops:
for simplicity say we start on the right side of the body. All the beat where the poi are on the right side (b4 they comes into the central buzzsaw) are twists, the central buzzsaw beat then go tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle... (this is why you must have an even number of central beats) then when you take them out on the left side all the beats are untwists.
the most basic buzzsaw hyperloop is twist, tangle, untangle, untwist.
also possible is doing extra central beats- twist, tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle, untwist
doing extra outside beats- twist, twist, tangle, untangle, untwist, untwist
or my latest favoritest move 1 right side, 1 central, 2 left side, 2 right side, 1 central, 1 left side - twist, tangle, untwist, untwist, twist, twist, untangle, untwist.
turning with buzzsaw hyperloops:
when doing the central beats of a buzzsaw hyperloops you can turn 180 so you doing a backwards buzzsaw hyperloop this turns the tangling poi into the untangling poi and now the left side adds twist and right side takes them off. if you want to come out facing this direction you must do this turn after an even number of central beats otherwise you get something like this - twist, tangle, untangle, tangle, (turn) tangle, untangle... and the tangle b4 the turn won't come out.
the only people i've seen doing this are matt, psi, and oli of which matt and psi add an extra right side beat b4/as they turn so it looks like- twist, tangle, untangle, twist (turn) untangle, tangle, untwist, untwist. where as oli I think does the more purest- twist, tangle, untangle, (turn) untangle, tangle, untwist
right that all i can be bother to write up now i'll sort out all the butterfly crap tomorrow and sometime in the future i'll right all the up properly with pretty pictures and am afriad alot more maths 
any questions welcome
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twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
was just thinking this give a nice way to define the difference between hyperloops and airwarps
hyperloops- contain both twist and tangles
airwarps- contain only twist
Another thing I forgot to mention yesterday is that am counting a hyperloop beat when the poi heads past through the celling plane level with the hands (as this is when the twist or tangle is added to the knot).
butterfly hyperloops:
This is going to be abit harder cos there no standard way of doing these so I’ll describe way I do them and how twist and tangle apply to them. Although I’ve got a feeling that the other variations will turn out to have the same description in term of twist and tangles.
So from TTN ( L H clockwise, R H anticlockwise) the point just after both poi reach the top of the circle and the right hand inside (so the poi form an X in the wall plane above the hands) push the right hand away from the body so the middle of the poi collide this is the first twist that all knots but start with. Next the poi which is going clockwise falls between the arms, this is a tangle. Here you are in a BHB-, butterfly hyperloop buzzsaw, (R H outside, L H inside) and each extra beat in this position will add a tangle. From here you turn the BHB so the R H’s inside and the L H’s outside, now each beat is an untangle when you have no more tangle left push your R H out and this does the necessary untwists.
So the easiest butterfly hyperloop of this kind is- twist, tangle, untangle, untwist
And adding few beat on each side looks like this- twist, tangle, tangle, tangle, untangle, untangle, untangle, untwist
Butterfly hyperloops with extra outside beats:
When you turn the BHB from R H outside, L H inside to R H inside, L H outside you can put extra beat in this turn where both poi spin outside (or inside for that matter) the arms this adds no extra twist or tangles so you can do as many as you want (watch Dunc if you want to see in one hand and done well!)
fake hyperloops (a buzzsaw hyperloop without any center beats):
these aren’t really fake but feel it cos they only consist of a twist and a untwist
warps and changing from buzzsaw to butterfly hyperloop:
This is just a case of combining the above information but an example to keep you going is- start a buzzsaw hyperloop warp 1 poi after an odd number of beat, do one beat as you are (in a BHB with R H outside and L H inside) then turn to R H inside, L H outside and do two beats then push your R H forward and magic it come out! (you have very careful with how the poi cross after the wrap but I’ll let you figure that out)
Like all good mathematics there homework so your homework is to go away and use this way of looking at things to invent a new hyperloop 8O.
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
Great stuff Tim,
Will print out and have a good study.
Would it help to go through the videos and insert links to illustrate which tangles we are talking about? Are there any useful vids in spherc?
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
tim all this is suprisingly close to how id been thinking it worked in my head, but i hadnt got round to trying to explain it to anyone.
a question:
for a weave twist, how much dose the string between the poi heads rotate during a twist? i think in your terms it is 90 degrees, but im not sure, in my terms id say 180 degrees but then you need a half twist to start a tangled buzzsaw which probably isnt convientient.
there may be some more questions and thoughts later when ive had a think.
nice one
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
tim and oli, shall i knock up some icons and put them in the emoticons thing.
That way you could explain things with pretty diagrams.
if so, what diagrams?
m
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
excellent post & suggestions 8O
..
if Matt can have some small jpeg working as emoticons ..
especially with some drawings like the ones in Oli's tutorial ..
that would be far more than helpful
it's looking like the best tutorial on tangles I've seen
.. gotta go practice ( Why is it, that I never take the prints out when I practice !!)
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
Good stuff... must print.
A very minor point- airwraps and hyperloops have been defined in the wiki and your 'fake' hyperloops only have twists
And:
[quote="oli"]...how much dose the string between the poi heads rotate during a twist? i think in your terms it is 90 degrees, but im not sure, in my terms id say 180 degrees but then you need a half twist to start a tangled buzzsaw which probably isnt convientient.
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
oli & stoneT- you do need 180deg for a twist, I think the reason you think am describing it as 90deg is in the part about butterfly hyperloops am abit unclear as when the twist and tangle on the first beat takes affect i think i said it's when you push the right hand through which isn't accturly true it's when they fall through the arms for the first time. sorry about that but your probably find there afew more bugs to come out yet...
matt- think i might knot up some simple drawing myself to go with it just cos i've got quite a clear idea of what i want and where but probably in about a month or so (when all the bugs have been squashed) i'll try and write it up properly with drawwing and hopfully video links and will need your help for that.
everone else thanks for the posts & keep trying to pick hole with it.
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
ok, ive done my thinking. This is kind of an extension of what your saying tim. Im fairly certain what you mean by twist and tangle is the same as what you mean. If its not shout at me.
first im going to make up a few terms and define them.
twangle: either a twist OR a tangle (basically a knot, but a bit more specific, cos i think a knot could be twist and a tangle too)
infinite twangle: a twangle that dose not need to change position relative to your hands for a twangle > untwangle sequence to occur.
direction of twist: this is a property of each poi, it is the same as the direction in which it is spinning EXCEPT when the poi is spinning on the opposite side of your body to its own. (for example, your right poi spinning forwards by your left side, has backward twist)
now some rules:
if when tangling your poi directions of twist are opposite, (one forewords and one back), you doing a twangle.
if when tangling your poi directions of twist are the same, both forwards or both backwards, then you doing an infinite twangle.
it is impossible to have the sequence, infinite twangle > infinite twangle.
what you can work out if you apply the above rules, is that a weave tangle is the infinite part of the buzzsaw hyperloop and a butterfly twist, the infinite part of the butterfly hyperloop. (which we already knew, but there is some theory behind it now )
im not entirely convinced about this, but it seems to make sense to me right now. maybe all this explanes some other stuff to? maybe it makes sense only in my head ?
8O
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
it all sounds a bit familiar somehow...
(See also discussions of Twistie, Tangle and Knot in the Poidia forum)
T&B - good stuff dude! Now whats this more complex stuff???
and can all tangly dynamics be described purely as twists and tangles? i'd assumed that they were the only ones practical with poi, rather than all the ones that there were...
hmm, my hloops just twist but my airwraps tangle
does this mean i'm "special" ?
and *hint hint* i'd really love to see video clip of someone cleanly doing and undoing a knot. With aesthetics and smooth momentum, rather than just 'qualifying' with bouncing socks. are there any about?
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
oli think am go to shout at you
first small point is that you can't have a tangle without a twist. try it to get a tangle by jummping one poi head over the "knot" but to get this "knot" you must (at least) cross the poi over and this is a twist.
I persume by this you mean the central beats of a buzzsaw hyperloop as this is the only postion in a hyperloop i've seen with the property that you when you do nothing it tangle, then untangles, then tangles... (all the time the inital twist holds the knot together). There is no twist equlent to this if the poi and twisting up they will continue to do so, simalarly for untwists. The next closes thing you get to this are outside beat on a butterfly hyperloop but they neither twist nor untwist, tangle or untangle at all points of the knot is unchanged.
a fairly picky point:
do to mean going into a hyperloop if so you can't start with a tangle
tried but really can't understand this I think I need to understand what you mean by twangle
do you not mean oppersite here, for a buzzsaw hyperloop both poi are spinning the same way right poi on right side left poi on right side?
again don't understand this what do you mean by>
Just a warning what i mean by twist and tangle are slightly different to how there definded on this website this is partly cos i didn't read the deffenitions on this web site first (i didn't even know they existed) and partly cos I think these are the standard mathmatical definition. Saying that the two definitions are remarkably simalar.
simian twist and tangles are all you need for anysort of knot (althought most common knot as 2 or 3 layers of twist and tangle ontop of each other)
and yes your very special
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
good
yep, i see what you mean. i wasnt clear sorry, what i meant is during when you have your poi linked togther you are doing either a twist or a tangle, you are twangling. so the twangle is what ever you are doing (either a twist or a tangle) at a specific moment in time. not the complete knot you have created. that make more sense?
yes i do mean the central beats of a buzzsaw hyperloop, and the outside of a butterfly one. but i thought thats what you were calling a twist in terms of butterflys, and that didnt make sense to me at first, but then i thought because it is in same time, the untwisting occours at the same time as the twisting, which is why the knot appears unchanged? i dunno though. im confused about this
nope
i mean at any point during the hyperloop.
no i mean same, the tangle which is infinite bit of a buzzsaw hyperloop occours between your arms, and then since both poi are spinning forewards, both have the forewards twist since neither is on its opposite side.
both poi spinning same way, right poi on right side and left on right side, creates a twist, which as you say you need before you can get to the tangle. effectivly going from a twist to a tangle is reversing one of the directions of twist on poi, you do this by moving the left from the outiside (right) to the centre (between your arms)
sorry i dont mean greater than, i mean infinite twangle followed by another infinite twangle.
hope i make more sense now. i doubt it though. i should have probably put a disclaimer with that post syaing something like 'olis latest crackpot theory, dont take it too seriously'
thinking about this stuff is almost as fun as doing it though
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
tim, that's actually the clearest breakdown of hyperloop theory i've ever read! a pleasure to read and it all made absolute sense until i hit oli speak with the twangles... :22
i think i know what you're trying to describe after that last post tho. do you mean the twangles are the riding a horse part?
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
I'd like to say, that after reading this thread, and giving it a few days to sink into my head, I can now do basic air wraps and hyper loops. I just started to get them last night, and I can only do forward weave hyper loops. I'm working on reverse and then buzzsaw or something. I'll see where it takes me
Just wanted to say thanks to everyone who aided me along the tangly way
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
firstly something i wrote earlier about butterfly hyperloops i've found isn't quite right. basicly i said that each beat of a butterfly buzzsaw hyperloop adds a tangle which it does but it can also add or minus a twist at the same time by how the poi head cross each other. this make life far hard if you try to add these twist so would advise people to steer clear of them but they can make life easier when wrapping from butterfly hyerloop to normal hyperloops (or at least explain why they work).
oli think it all make senses apart from why cant you have a infinate twangle followed by an infinate twangle isn't that what you do when you turn 180? might just be me being dum cos i feel like shit and can't think straight
chris it's always a plesure to read your posts too
ImmortalAngle "you have just taken your first steps into a much larger world" (sorry couldn't resist)
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
[quote="Treesandbeatles"]rule 1 you can only start a knot with a twist
rule 2 you can't untwist a tangle or untangle a twist.
rule 3 a untwist will only cancel out a twist if there is no tangles between them and a untangle will only cancel out a tangle if there is no twists between them.
a
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
Rev please do me the favour for reading through my definitions of twist and tangles again cos i think this is why we're comeing to different rules and conclusions. basically forget the fact that your done a hyperloop or even the the poi are spinning my definitions are to do with how to tie a big knot in the poi weather they are spinning or not. (in bref why rule 1 is not wrong: to produce a tangle you swing one of the poi heads over the knot. if the poi are not even cross you can't do this cos there's nothing to swing the poi head over and if they are crossed they are twisted by my definition of what a twist is). The reason i've redefined what a twist and a tangle is because i belive it make life alot easier in understanding what a hyperloop is doing
I think this shows one of your funamental misunderstanding you have with my definition. the 50 tangle beats you refure to under my definitions would be of the form tangle, untangle, tangle, untangle... so all of these beats cancel out in effect making the twist and untwist next to each other.
I agree with would help loads if we meet up am sure we could sort things out in half the time.
I do belive that under your definition you're coming to the equlilent result as me but they're express differently cos of your different definitions (to use mathematical words our systems for looking at hyperloops are isomorphic) but to be brutel I belive my definitons simplerfy things significantly.
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
please humor me.. I've been doing these a LONG time... and there are very few people that follow what I'm talking about.. which is why no-one really understands these things.. I've read your definition.. and its mine but backwards.. we're starting from the same points.. even moving in the same direction... but I'm trying to move you past some of the problems that I ran into.. whihc are your rules... they don't work.. you don't realize it yet.. but you will.. especially if you take to spinning these things at all..
none of those rules apply spinning or not..
and the reason you misunderstand is that they don't merely operate so cleanly..
a tangle will have lead poi tangling and follow poi untangling.. hence a perpetual tanlge process that goes nowhere.. however.. it does not always operate so easily.. because only pure tanlges, or say a 1bt twist will result in those nice tangles.. you forget that when not using a pure tangle, you get a knot.. thus the poi will not one tanlge and the other untangle.. but again.. all this is moot... we are talking the EXACT same things.. just fliping the terms.. you rmethod is no easier.. but you are running into problems..
you can by twist->tangle->untanlge done
you can twist -> tanlge-> untwist -> untangle
you can do all of the things that you post can't be done..
that's the only point of disagreement here..
You are working with the same base as everyone else.. the difference is you understand more.. all I ask is that you take a minute to play with it.. take a minute to talk with me.. or take a minute to try some of the stuff I explain.. they -seem- like they are redefining your terms but they don't... they don't ever operate outside of them... you've got the right box, now step out of it for a second...
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
it's occured to me that something that could be causing abit of confusion is the frist twist. The poi don't have to be touching each other to form the frist twist they just need to be crossed on the plane on which your poi are spinning. infact you a 3beat weave forms a twist which is then untwisted on the other side without the poi ever touching (alternativly the poi can touch and you get a fake hyperloop). this propertie of the frist twist can make it seem like you can entre a hyperloop striaght into a tangle but if you look at the knot formed it will alway have a twist at the beginning. simarly the last twist can be untwisted without the poi touching.
Rev I think what i've decribed might solve some of our disagreements on the subject. I have played around with twist and tangle alot in the last month and have found nothing which breaks my 3 rules so am still sticking to them. (would love to see a vid of twist, tangle, untwist, untangle coming out as this breaks my 3rd rule and as far as am conserned is impossible). also when you say my definitions are fliped or backwards what exactly do you mean I've looked at your definitions and would say there more to do with different positions in hyperloops but wouldn't decribe them as backwards.
p.s. got any plans of coming to london? this would be so much easier to sort out face to face
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
Haha, you guys crack me up.
I think you are both arguing the same point using different meanings for terms.
Rev: T&B explained al this to me at my house, then mathematically created a theoretical odd beat tangle which we both then confirmed was possible.
That is proof enough for me that this model is sound.
I think the problem lies in the language used, not in the math behind it.
Yeah rev, you really should spend some time in england, bring poikid over as well.
m
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
I never said the problem was in the math... I'm saying that I've been doing things with twists, tangels, and knots that people have been claiming wasnt' possible for (hey its december) a year now..
I'm not sure what he menas by a frist twist.. I'll ahve to do my homework at some poitn when I can keep this bastard pc running.. because no offense to anyone.. but checking and replying to spherc on my phone takes YEARS...
now if you look at my definition of twist.. what you get is a weave... or half of a weave rather...
starting on the left go twist -> (right) untwist -> (right) twist -> (left) untwist.. and what you have is a weave done mid chain rather than at the wrist.. which is why the whole link group is nothing more than a center of spin issue.. its porperties work exactly the same as anything else we spin, so there's nothing essentially special about it..
however... the one thing that gives it character is the fact that our arms have bones and the strings (thank god) don't... so you can smooth malleable transitions which lead to all sorts of knotness..
now to address you T&B: re-reading.. I think you initial paragraph sounds backwards.. but the rest sounds the same.. I mean if you take a tanlge.. and pull your hands apart.. it comes out... a twist on the other hand.. if you pull your hands apart.. finishes twisting.. then stalls, then comes back the other way to untwist..
rule # 1- lets say I start with a tangle.. since tanlges occur wholly in the space in between the hands... then I should not, given this rule be able to exit with beats left.. however, you can enter a tangle and in several ways, the most common of which is rotating with the tangle (not isolating the tangle), this creats a winding sensation like winding a clock.. makes the poi spin faster, and upon exiting the other side, will result in beats of twist that need to be undone... even though no twist was ever performed.. as in the poi never acted in a way that would resemble the twist action or the twist nexus.. yet a knot WAS formed..
this of course leads to Rule # 2- in which I have a tanlge that must be untwisted.. in order for the link to undo..
finally.. rule # 3... this one is harder to explain.. but lies in the ability to add beats and remove beats in the tangle position.. which is sort of talked about above.. thus you twist (+1) -> tangle (+1) -> untwist (-1) -> untangle (-1) and it exits as if you just did a tangle.. for the record the +1 and -1 are not the number of beats the poi make but the beats of twist..
see this last bit of confusion lies in the discrepency over meaning in tangle/untangle.. because the tangle itself.. doesnt add beats.. nor does it subtract beats.. so there is never a need to 'untangle' because tanlge is a particular nexus type that is for the most part unchanging.. it is a transition point you move into it and out of it, but never really tangle or untangle.. because the nexus itself undoes everything that it does AS it does it.. lead poi tanlges, the follow poi untangles.. so nothing is ever accomplished because its always exactly what it was prior to anything..
whihc lends confusion to if you only do a tangle.. because if you go unlinked -> tangle -> unlinked it appears to tangle nad untangle, but I think that's pushing the term.. because what happens is it transitions inot the tanlge space and thus to the tangle nexus and then transitions back out as it came in so long as you do even number of beats.. there is no tangle to be had.. because what you are doing is no different then the inverted part of an inverted weave.. for the most part the tanlge process can occur with a larger void in the nexus, and by expanding the nexus the strings never touch.. but the process remains the same..
finally, when it comes to adding beats in the tangle space, we are crossing a fuzzy boundary.. ebcause what we are doing anytime beats are made in the tangle space is adding twist beats.. twists are the only things that can have 'beats'... so even though there is no actual twist (as per the twist nexus) adding the beats, they are still nonetheless twist beats.. and so when you go twist -> tangle and add beats in the tanlge, you are still tangling, but beats are made.. I refer to this as winding, rather than tangle beats because it tries to move past the confusion of a tangle beat.. and thus when I untwist on the other side I can untwist the beats that I twisted and then do one of two options.. a) continue to untwist the rest of the beats or b) move back into the tangle and unwind the beats.. thus going twist -> tangle-> untwist -> untangle..
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
A) The term beats is a misnomer when dealing with tangles of any kind.
B) I'm understanding this a lot more and I disagree with both of you
I'm not seeing any difference between "twists" and "tangles". It's all just winding and unwinding - and this is related to where the poi heads go.
If the leading poi "enters" first then you need an even numer of "beats" to exit with the leading poi, or an odd number to exit with the trailing poi.
If the trailing poi "enters" first then you need an odd numer of "beats" to exit with the leading poi, or an even number to exit with the trailing poi.
Going underarm means you lead or exit with the trailing poi. Winding an arm on its own changes which poi leads or changes the number of beats needed to exit depending on how you look at it - winding both just cancels each other out.
Anyway, I need to work more at this, but it's working for me. And I don't see butterfly hyperloops as fundamentally different...
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
I have to disagree with you there on a few things..
mainly the issue of winding..
when I wind both hands, I end ahving to unwind them, or untwist them... it does not cancel out nor does it merely 'change lead poi'
you can enter a tangle, wind less than two rotations with each hand, and exit with 4+ beats of twist to undo....
beats exist through out.. they are always twist beats.. just not always accomplished in the same way as the twist nexus...
if your winds cancel each other.. then you still have yet to wind..
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
on the subject of tangles and winding..
there are three main poles I work between (though its possible to work beyond them to 5 )
basically you can have a tangle with hands held still.. this is a static stasis.. static becuase one axis is not moving.. stasis because the other axis is unchanging.. as the lead poi moves, the follow poi constantly undoes what the lead is doing as it does it.. therefore.. nothing ever happens.. (for those that like full isolations.. the two most extreme poles result from the poi still and the hands spinning around them..)
then you have dynamic stasis.. ie. isolated tangles... in this case both axi are moving.. (in any timing pattern) but the result is that the isolation holds the whole thing in a stasis.. just a dynamic one..
so ou pole strucutre looks like this:
-SS <-> -DS <-> +/-SS <-> +DS <-> +SS
-SS/+SS= the extreme poles.. poi still, hands moving (-Rev, +For)
-DS/+DS = Rev isolated tangle/ For isolated tangle
+/-SS= a For or rev tangle while the hands are still
in between each of these poles (<->
, enters the winding operation in various degrees.. I prefer the ones in the middle.. because you add a little torque, get the poi heads spin super fast, and do your winding via the poi and a little bit of hand movement.. (bit of a misnomer but a little bit compared to the other winding points)
winding works in the points between -DS and -SS as well as +DS and +SS.. but these involve the hands to do more rotations than the poi do.. and the way I see it.. baby steps.. you know..
in each of these winding positions the poi are out of sync and thus CANNOT be in pure equilibrium.. this is the creation point of tangle beats.. whihc are twist beats made in a different way..
keep in mind that at any winding point you can counter wind.. think of it like the antispin of tangles.. which also works out an equilibrium.. and is not just a straight thing.. because you have (S)pin and (C)ounter(S)pin.. each of which work the same way to some degree... with a zero point in the middle.. S <-> 0 <-> CS... zero being no hand movement..
Counterspin != counterwind... counterspin sometimes counterwinds, and in other instances adds to the winds.. there are lots of factors.. axis position, speed of the poi, etc..
and to think that this is only talking about tangles linearly... I mean these things are orbs for all intents and purposes... because your poi act on one axis, but your hands another, and they don't have to line up, but can go any direction.. hence the gyrascope.. but I don't know enough about math to talk about things in circular space.. so needless to say, my explanations of complex tangle work have not been forth coming.. hell I don't even know enough math to talk about what I have thus far properly..
anyway.. thought I'd drop this tidbit.. don't really have time to go into much more.. terll the hoppers, I said hey.. and I'll pop back in when I get the chance..
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
I'm hoping that im gonna understand WTH you're all saying once i've leared to do hyperloops ya? lol
Jim
twist, tangles and understanding hyerloops
[quote="techno"]I'm hoping that im gonna understand WTH you're all saying once i've leared to do hyperloops ya? lol
Jim