Tenticle's transition definitions

In the thread on inversions on HoP tenticle came up with a set of descriptions of the various "transitions" as he calls them that can describe weaves and perhaps allow us to talk about various bits and bobs a bit more clearly. I'll quote it here to save people the effort of finding it...

[quote="tenticle"]ok... so here's where i'm at with insides and inversions and stuff.
firstly, some terms...
inside: between the arms and the body
buzzsaw: between the arms
inverted: the planes are facing in different directions.

also, i number transitions in the series that they fit into, so, for a same direction split time move...
transition 0: hand on the crossed side leads to same side under other arm
transition 1: hand on the same side leads to crossed side
transition 2: hand on the crossed side leads to same side over other arm
so a normal 3bt is a 1 followed by a 1, a 5bt is a 2 followed by a 2, a 2bt is a 1 followed by a 0. there's a few others, 3 is used for 7s, -1 is the one you'd do to do a 2bt offset from a 5, etc.
if you're lost already, it's only going to get worse...

so, a buzzsaw is an inversion that you transition into with the leading poi, whilst doing the 0 transition in a 2bt.
a crossed arm buzzsaw inversion is an inversion you transition into from a 1, and does the barrel roll around the arms thing.
this also means that spinning at your sides is an inversion, but as the poi are in different planes, it's kind of irrelevant. you can also do a buzzsaw inversion from a 2 transition, but it's a right bitch not to get confused on.

then theres inversions with the trailing poi... do a 1 transition, and bring the trailing poi up between you arms (buzzsaw), over the crossed arm and lead back to the other side, then do the same with the other poi... you get a 3bt weave where the planes are always facing in different directions. from this, you can add in the crossed arms buzzsaw inversion as well, which leads me to call the 3bt inverted weave with the trailing poi buzzsawed a (1,1)3bt inverted weave, and the buzzsaw crossed arms inversion a 1 transition buzzsaw inversion, because you can get into it from any 1 transition, normal or inverted. you can also only take the leading poi up the buzzsaw zone (oo-er) and have it come back to the same side for some straightjacket type action, transition still s.j.ed and then bring the other one up buzzsaw to escape...

then we have another kind of inversion, where one poi is inside, and one is outside. try doing this: hand on the crossed side is spinning outside, hand on the same side is spinning inside, by reaching over the crossed arm. you can transition this to the other side of the body, and at the same time swap which poi is spinning inside, in a kind of 2bt weave like way... the poi on the inside each time leads to the outside, and the outside poi trails into the inside. then you can start playing with what happens to the inside poi... it can go outside for a beat, come over the other arm and go back inside on the same side, or it can transition to the other side and come up inside or outside. or it can come up buzzsaw for a beat and go back inside, or transition, or drag the other poi into a buzzsaw invert...

still with me? the upshot of all this is that you can do a 3bt inverted weave between the inside and outside on one side of the body, then transition the whole lot to the other side and do the same again, or do some other seriously weird stuff like a weave where one poi transitions outside and one inside, swap which is in and out and transition back, or something that looks like a same direction split time ttn, but is actually one going between inside and outside, and one going between outside and buzzsaw, like an antispin 2bt but without the antispin, or always have one outside, one buzzsaw, but swap outside and buzzsaw every beat. or you can do watermills (like a windmill but between outside and inside. they work like windmills more than weaves because you can't get any shoulder turning in to add beats (so they are reels really)) with inverts in. or you can do water mills with buzzsaw inverts on either end to make a madly spinning poi arm mess. or you can inverted thruwrap into the inside, swap inside and outside, inverted thruwrap back. and probably much much more, but my head is hurting.

Comments

Isn't this the self same thing as we were talking about in my 'New to Me' thread about TANGLE A, TANGLE B and TANGLE C???

If that's the case i'm totally up for it, except 1,2,3 gets confused for beats so i'd prefer using A,B,C.

m

I like the numbers... its crossovers.. and its better than beats.. I love it..

0 degree (ie no cross over) either 0 or 1 bt
1rst degree (one cross) 2-3 bt weaves
2nd degree (2 crosses) 4-5 etc...

helps people understand when people say 2 2bt weaves = 3 bt weave
2 4bt weaves = 5 bt weave... and so forth...

Yeah, and then we can talk about offset weaves like so -

2bt weave = 1 and 0 transition
2bt offset weave = 1 and 2 transition

you mean an offset 2bt would be a 2bt weavewith a 2 and a 0 transition... rather than one with a 1 and 0 transition..

EDIT:

actually he says a it would be a 2 then a -1...

I realized that I talk about corssovers at different points.. like for me a 2bt weave is a first degree cross over.. and a 2bt offset would be like a first degree crossover from a higher degree crossover.. whihc is harder to notate..

but I think its equally problematic with this one..

just actually read the first thread and 0, 1, 2 is blaitantly better Sphism/smilesmiley

figured you would.. you think like me on things like this.. Sphism/winksmiley

[quote="Rev"]you mean an offset 2bt would be a 2bt weavewith a 2 and a 0 transition... rather than one with a 1 and 0 transition..

EDIT:

actually he says a it would be a 2 then a -1...

I realized that I talk about corssovers at different points.. like for me a 2bt weave is a first degree cross over.. and a 2bt offset would be like a first degree crossover from a higher degree crossover.. whihc is harder to notate..

but I think its equally problematic with this one..

I think what ben is doing is adding a notation to make the 1 different from normal..

4 bt weave- 2,1 or 1,2
offset 2bt- 2, -1 or -1, 2

that can possibly get confusing...

but the alternative helps a bit more, but still has the same problem..

put it by degree of transition used..
ex.
2bt weave - 1,0 not (or 0,1) its a crossover and back..
3bt weave- 1,1
4bt weave- 2,1
5bt weave- 2,2
2bt offset- 2,0

tada..

problem is-
3bt offset- 2,1

its because crossovers fall into sets (at least with weaves) and side..

you can alter the notation though... that -might- make it simpler.... (to some of you this will look familiar Sphism/winksmiley when I talked of tangles and offsets.. its all inhow much you add and subtract.. and how that balances.. )
4 3 2 1 0 -1 -2 -3 -4

2bt weave- 1,0 ; -1, 0 (1<->0 =2) (-1<->0=2)
3bt weave- 1,-1 (1<->-1=3)
4bt weave- 2,-1; -2,1 (2<->-1= 4)
5bt weave- 2,-2 (2<->-2=5)
2bt offset- 2,1 or -2,-1 (2<->1=2)
3bt offset- 2,0 or 2,0 (2<->0=3)

and one more thing.. look it shows the degree transition needed, too..
2bt weave a 1 and a 0
3bt weave a 1 and -1

which is bens thing.. if you take the absolute value.. even though you don't have to.. so you get beats transitions, and a model of the twist all in one... this should look ssomething like what poibot uses yeah matt?

I'm liking this stuff a lot. Feels far more useful than beats.

Poibot doesn't durrently use anything like this but this is exactly how i am planning to do the collision detection (so the arms can't pass thru each other). If poibot can count the number of half twists it's doing then it's arms won't go thru each other. Plus it would be able to do tangles. But i'm planning on using shockwave instead of flash now.

It was tim T&B who explained all this to me for tangles, but it applys to weaves nd inversions and, well, everything.

aight.. I was just figured since that's kinda how some of the slide things on poibot worked that it might be related..

well cool cool..

and as far as transitions, vs beats, etc.. I think they each have their value.. and this kinda works all that into one.. and as you said it does apply to everything.. makes a lot of moves easier to learn..

yo.

the -1 is the transition before the 0 transition. if you do a 2,2 you do a five beat. a 2,1 is a four, a 2,0 is a 3bt with same and crossed side beats swapped and a 2, -1 is a 2bt where you don't unwrap your witsts from a five, you just go straight back... that is, do a 2 from left to right, the right poi leads to the left, then lead back to the left with the right poi without bringing it over the left hand. repeat for a 2bt weave offset from a five. (a normal 2bt is a 2bt offset from a 3)
there's also a -2 and -3 and probably a -4 but i'm not sure if i've ever done one...

a 2,1 always describes a four beat. you can say a left leading or a right leading 2,1 but the 2,1 part is the same, as it says that the poi on the crossed side leads across to the same side followed by the poi on the same side leads across to the crossed side.
now, a 2,-1 is also saying that the poi on the crossed side leads across to the same side followed by the poi on the same side leads across to the crossed side, but the difference is that the negative transitions (and zero) are transitions while you are unwinding your hands and the positive ones are when you are winding them up again.
you count up one number every 180' rotation of the hands or poi, then when you transition, negate the number and add one (as a transition takes 180') and that's the first transition you could do. even in reverse, you count up. when you change from forward to reverse you change which poi is on the same side and which is crossed, but the numbers still describe the right action. reverse transitions can be denoted by an R, if you want to specify things further, but often it isn't necessary, particularly in wall plane. for instance, a wall plane 2bt weave is 1,0,1,0 as a wall plane weave has 4 transitions. it could also be a 2,-1,2,-1... a generalization for 2bt wall plane weaves is: a,-a+1,a,-a+1. you can start from a as any one of the four transitions in a wall plane weave, any hand leading, follow the pattern and get a 2bt wall plane weave.

any help?

--ben

I think that's a help, but I'm going to spend some time with my poi before I can absorb it all Sphism/winksmiley

But thanks for clarifying!

I wanted to start reading this (as for the HoP thread) ..
but I droped it again !!
Could you nice fellow spinners take a picture of the hand position for the transition 1, 2, 3
that would really help Sphism/smilesmiley
I guess it shouldn't be an issue to find a mobile phone with a digi cam integrated (we don't need a smooth video, just a couple of pictures of the arm crossing position)